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Forward Unto Dawn Forums => None of the Above => Topic started by: Capac Amaru on March 09, 2012, 06:21:30 AM

Title: Mass Effect 3
Post by: Capac Amaru on March 09, 2012, 06:21:30 AM
So, I spend $129AUS, that's $137.09US for you americanos, and I can't upload my Shepard's face to the game, and therefore can't single-player. Y'know, the reason why I buy a sci-fi RPG...
Title: Re: Mass Effect 3
Post by: Sixftunder on March 09, 2012, 07:31:01 AM
So, I spend $129AUS, that's $137.09US for you americanos, and I can't upload my Shepard's face to the game, and therefore can't single-player. Y'know, the reason why I buy a sci-fi RPG...

I was just about to start this same thread. are you talking about some kind of kinect feature?

Has anyone finished the game yet?
Title: Re: Mass Effect 3
Post by: Capac Amaru on March 09, 2012, 08:02:52 AM
No, I'm talking about how I can't upload the face I played through Mass Effect and Mass Effect 2 because EA either skimped on testing, or deliberately are trying to force the fans who have been playing from the beginning to play multiplayer while they wait for a patch.
Title: Re: Mass Effect 3
Post by: That Gunslinger on March 09, 2012, 08:34:32 AM
Have you stored the data using the cloud? I've heard that has been causing some people to be unable to import their Shepard's faces. Oh man I'lll be playing it in a matter of hours once it's delivered, so excited.
Title: Re: Mass Effect 3
Post by: Postmortem on March 09, 2012, 04:04:10 PM
The game gets off to a rough start, but once you get a few hours in it returns to the Mass Effect you know and love. :)
Title: Re: Mass Effect 3
Post by: DangerousDave on March 09, 2012, 04:15:34 PM
Haha, I was going to invite you in to play some BTB Reach last night Six, but then I saw you were off saving the damn planet :P Y'all have fun with that!
Title: Re: Mass Effect 3
Post by: Sixftunder on March 09, 2012, 04:57:00 PM
I loved the game, one of the best I've played, all up until the last three minutes. If you haven't heard, this is a lot of outcry on the Internet from fans who feel let down. I don't want to ruin it for anyone who hasn't beaten the game yet that wants to, but i felt raped after investing so much time and mone into the series for such a shitty ending. When someone has finished the game (postmortem?) let me know how you feel about it.
Title: Re: Mass Effect 3
Post by: Postmortem on March 09, 2012, 09:21:50 PM
I will. Trying to take my time with it. I've heard the same thing, that you don't get a good ending if you don't invest some time in multiplayer, so I'm doing that in between playing campaign.
Title: Re: Mass Effect 3
Post by: That Gunslinger on March 09, 2012, 10:35:21 PM
I'm really taking my time with it, I only played like 4 hours of it today, which is odd for me (for a new release anyway). I've been highly impressed wiith it so far, the only negative thing is the crazy glitches during cutscenes and conversations (like Shepard looking over his shoulder for an entire conversation). But it hasn't detracted from the immersion much, so I don't care. I like funny glitches, just not game-breaking ones.
Title: Re: Mass Effect 3
Post by: Capac Amaru on March 09, 2012, 11:50:18 PM
I can't play, because I'm waiting for the stupid patch. And multiplayer takes years to connect most of the time.
Title: Re: Mass Effect 3
Post by: Sixftunder on March 10, 2012, 12:16:48 AM
I can't play, because I'm waiting for the stupid patch. And multiplayer takes years to connect most of the time.

ME3 actually has taken the least amount of time to find a match of any game I've played. Thats weird.
Title: Re: Mass Effect 3
Post by: Capac Amaru on March 10, 2012, 03:44:17 AM
I can't play, because I'm waiting for the stupid patch. And multiplayer takes years to connect most of the time.

ME3 actually has taken the least amount of time to find a match of any game I've played. Thats weird.

It must just be this crappy third world country i live in...
Title: Re: Mass Effect 3
Post by: DangerousDave on March 10, 2012, 04:32:40 PM
I can't play, because I'm waiting for the stupid patch. And multiplayer takes years to connect most of the time.

ME3 actually has taken the least amount of time to find a match of any game I've played. Thats weird.

It must just be this crappy third world country i live in...

I do feel sorry for you guys. Yahtzee really makes me feel your pain.
Title: Re: Mass Effect 3
Post by: Tar Alacrin on March 11, 2012, 01:55:01 AM
YAHTZEEE!!!  :D
   Havent got Me3 yet  :( but! I am a pro at Yahtzee, which is a game of chance
Title: Re: Mass Effect 3
Post by: DangerousDave on March 11, 2012, 02:04:10 AM
Haha, not that Yahtzee. Ben "Yahtzee" Crowshaw. An Aussie who does funny critical reviews. http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/zero-punctuation
Title: Re: Mass Effect 3
Post by: Sixftunder on March 11, 2012, 03:08:29 AM
YAHTZEEE!!!  :D
   Havent got Me3 yet  :( but! I am a pro at Yahtzee, which is a game of chance

Haha, not that Yahtzee. Ben "Yahtzee" Crowshaw. An Aussie who does funny critical reviews. http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/zero-punctuation

Beat you feel kinda dumb now, don't you Tar :p

Lol Just messin with you Tar, just had  to show you some karma.
Title: Re: Mass Effect 3
Post by: Capac Amaru on March 11, 2012, 08:27:56 AM
Haha, not that Yahtzee. Ben "Yahtzee" Crowshaw. An Aussie who does funny critical reviews. http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/zero-punctuation

He's British, he just lives in Australia. His book is awesome too.
Title: Re: Mass Effect 3
Post by: DangerousDave on March 11, 2012, 12:58:13 PM
Oh. Well, as you expect I can't tell apart accents if me life depended on it :)

He has some interesting thoughts and valid criticisms about Halo, although he overdoes everything for the sake of humor, usually. (In his Halo 3 review he mentions inconsistent difficulty, which I noted too.)
Title: Re: Mass Effect 3
Post by: That Gunslinger on March 11, 2012, 03:50:43 PM
I love Zero Punctuation. But I wouldn't take much notice of the videos as reviews really. And there's not much humour in being nice to a game, so obviously he's going to focus on the negative aspects. I do like his view on multiplayer though, he just doesn't care at all, almost like me.
Title: Re: Mass Effect 3
Post by: Capac Amaru on March 11, 2012, 10:02:51 PM
He was pretty harsh on Too Human, and its one of my favourite games, ever.
Title: Re: Mass Effect 3
Post by: DangerousDave on March 12, 2012, 12:07:50 AM
I'm tempted to pick that up for $3 in a bargain bin somewhere, it seems to have been thrashed by the majority but I've heard a vocal minority say they love it.
Title: Re: Mass Effect 3
Post by: Postmortem on March 12, 2012, 01:39:18 AM
Funny story. One of my teachers who worked on Mass Effect 1 was talking about how the cover of Too Human was based on concept artwork for Mass Effect that got leaked. Conversely, a lot of the visual style is based on Mass Effect's (apparently, since I haven't played the game at all).

But I also have heard good things. The premise just seemed a little strange to me. Let me know if it's good and maybe I'll pick it up for cheap too.
Title: Re: Mass Effect 3
Post by: Capac Amaru on March 12, 2012, 01:44:47 AM
I'm tempted to pick that up for $3 in a bargain bin somewhere, it seems to have been thrashed by the majority but I've heard a vocal minority say they love it.

Its got a steep learning curve, and its unique controls and inventory aren't well explained in game, but the story is great, the art design is fantastic, and its fun once you know whats going on.
Title: Re: Mass Effect 3
Post by: Capac Amaru on March 12, 2012, 03:23:20 AM
Funny story. One of my teachers who worked on Mass Effect 1 was talking about how the cover of Too Human was based on concept artwork for Mass Effect that got leaked. Conversely, a lot of the visual style is based on Mass Effect's (apparently, since I haven't played the game at all).

But I also have heard good things. The premise just seemed a little strange to me. Let me know if it's good and maybe I'll pick it up for cheap too.

They were both produced by Microsoft Game Studios, so the cover wouldn't have been stolen so much as re-purposed. And the visual style is completely different, but the overarching theme of both games is mans struggle against AI, and they were both scifi rpg unreal engine trilogies release around the same time.

Only Silicon Knights got boned by Epic over the unreal engine, had to make their own engine, and Microsoft pushed the game out before it was ready.
Title: Re: Mass Effect 3
Post by: Postmortem on March 12, 2012, 04:51:11 AM
Wasn't the game like a combination of scifi with Greek mythology? Or am I getting that confused for something else...?
Title: Re: Mass Effect 3
Post by: Capac Amaru on March 12, 2012, 07:11:37 AM
Wasn't the game like a combination of scifi with Greek mythology? Or am I getting that confused for something else...?

Norse mythology.
Title: Re: Mass Effect 3
Post by: Tar Alacrin on March 12, 2012, 12:51:05 PM
YAHTZEEE!!!  :D
   Havent got Me3 yet  :( but! I am a pro at Yahtzee, which is a game of chance

Haha, not that Yahtzee. Ben "Yahtzee" Crowshaw. An Aussie who does funny critical reviews. http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/zero-punctuation

Beat you feel kinda dumb now, don't you Tar :p

Lol Just messin with you Tar, just had  to show you some karma.

Hahahahahahahaha!!!      :D I do feel dumb!!
     I thought he was just making fun of them for complaining about waiting times, even though the game is like, a marvel of technology and super stimulating, but you guys were complaining about wait times. I thought he was just putting everying into perspective by bringing up yahtzee! Hahahahahahahaha!!  :D    As i like to say "INSTANT KARMA!" :P


On the topic though; norse mythology crossed with sci fi sounds Awesome. But, I havent heard anything about this game... Whats it like?
Title: Re: Mass Effect 3
Post by: Capac Amaru on March 13, 2012, 05:53:23 AM
On the topic though; norse mythology crossed with sci fi sounds Awesome. But, I havent heard anything about this game... Whats it like?

Its a 3rd person cybernetic god beating the circuits out of robot goblins during the last ice age kind of game.
Title: Re: Mass Effect 3
Post by: Tar Alacrin on March 13, 2012, 12:20:37 PM
...forgive me if i dont check it out...  :P
Title: Re: Mass Effect 3
Post by: That Gunslinger on March 13, 2012, 09:55:07 PM
I've just finished it... it was amazing. One of the best video games I have ever played, one of the best pieces of entertainment ever created. I cried 3 times, and I don't care. I can see why some people are having issues with the ending, it's just like the way in which the Lost ending was percieved. But I found it very satisfactory, and it answered alll of the big questions. (well at least my ending did anyway). Cheers Bioware... and get lost EA ;).
Title: Re: Mass Effect 3
Post by: Sixftunder on March 13, 2012, 11:02:44 PM
I've just finished it... it was amazing. One of the best video games I have ever played, one of the best pieces of entertainment ever created. I cried 3 times, and I don't care. I can see why some people are having issues with the ending, it's just like the way in which the Lost ending was percieved. But I found it very satisfactory, and it answered alll of the big questions. (well at least my ending did anyway). Cheers Bioware... and get lost EA ;).

Alright, finally got someone to discuss this with.

All in all, ME3 was the best of the trilogy. I would give it a 10/10. I loved every minute of the campaign, all up until the credits started to roll.

The main reason I wasn't satisfied was this: There is no closure; all of the decisions you make in the game seem to mean nothing in the end. We never hear about the Rachni Queen (if you choose to save her; see said she would help fight the reapers), we never hear about the Krogan after the curing the genpophage, etc. A lot of people speculate that this will all be included in DLC, but how? The reapears are gone, so who would we be fighting?

I know Bioware was trying to do something outside of the box, and away from the Hollywood norm of "the good guys win and live happily ever after" and I respect that. However, it just seems like they spent all of their time on the rest of the game and realized they needed and ending before they could ship the game, so they slapped one in there.
Title: Re: Mass Effect 3
Post by: Postmortem on March 14, 2012, 04:55:55 AM
I liked the ending... a lot.

However, I also understand the complaints.
Title: Re: Mass Effect 3
Post by: Capac Amaru on March 14, 2012, 07:48:30 AM
I've just finished it... it was amazing. One of the best video games I have ever played, one of the best pieces of entertainment ever created. I cried 3 times, and I don't care. I can see why some people are having issues with the ending, it's just like the way in which the Lost ending was percieved. But I found it very satisfactory, and it answered alll of the big questions. (well at least my ending did anyway). Cheers Bioware... and get lost EA ;).

I still haven't played singleplayer, no updates from EA or Bioware
Title: Re: Mass Effect 3
Post by: That Gunslinger on March 14, 2012, 08:54:43 AM
Yes I agree that we deserved a longer cutscene at the end in order to show us exactly who survived, and at the end of the day each alliance you gathered just went into the total number of forces you had, and didn't as far as I saw make any difference (other than changing your options at the end). On the Krogan, I thought that the cutscene after the Genophage was cured essentially guaranteed their safety, so I was fine with that. On the Rachi, didn't she say that they were mostly working on the Crucible? Though I expected to see a few appear towards the final battles, same with the geth.

But anyway, I thought the ending was appropriate, it taught us why the Reapers attack, and who controls them, which is all I wanted from the game really. I chose the 'control' ending by the way, which seemed to tbe the best choice, as it stoppped the reapers, and saved as many people as possible, without killing the Geth too, or starting the cycle again. Of course the Relays were all destroyed so that essentially puts everyone back where they were before them (though they still have FTL drives). And most importantly for me, Joker, Liara and my battle-bro Garrus survived, and presumably the rest of the crew did if that planet was repopulated as was hinted at after the credits.

And that standoff with the Illusive Man, very, very nice indeed. One of the best scenes in the series. Oh and plunging my blade into Kai Leng, and saying "That was for Thane you son of a bitch" didn't hurt either. I think the main reason people weren't happy with the ending is that it wasn't a perfect 'happy' ending, but it shouldn't be. I showed that countless sacrifices were made, but there is hope. The only thing I didn't get was what Shepard was going to do with the Reapers. Will he help people rebuild or what? And how will he stop synthetics from being created again? I guess he is now the guardian of the galaxy, or as Stargazer said: 'The Shepard' of the Reapers.
Title: Re: Mass Effect 3
Post by: Sixftunder on March 14, 2012, 12:09:40 PM
Yes I agree that we deserved a longer cutscene at the end in order to show us exactly who survived, and at the end of the day each alliance you gathered just went into the total number of forces you had, and didn't as far as I saw make any difference (other than changing your options at the end). On the Krogan, I thought that the cutscene after the Genophage was cured essentially guaranteed their safety, so I was fine with that. On the Rachi, didn't she say that they were mostly working on the Crucible? Though I expected to see a few appear towards the final battles, same with the geth.

But anyway, I thought the ending was appropriate, it taught us why the Reapers attack, and who controls them, which is all I wanted from the game really. I chose the 'control' ending by the way, which seemed to tbe the best choice, as it stoppped the reapers, and saved as many people as possible, without killing the Geth too, or starting the cycle again. Of course the Relays were all destroyed so that essentially puts everyone back where they were before them (though they still have FTL drives). And most importantly for me, Joker, Liara and my battle-bro Garrus survived, and presumably the rest of the crew did if that planet was repopulated as was hinted at after the credits.

And that standoff with the Illusive Man, very, very nice indeed. One of the best scenes in the series. Oh and plunging my blade into Kai Leng, and saying "That was for Thane you son of a bitch" didn't hurt either. I think the main reason people weren't happy with the ending is that it wasn't a perfect 'happy' ending, but it shouldn't be. I showed that countless sacrifices were made, but there is hope. The only thing I didn't get was what Shepard was going to do with the Reapers. Will he help people rebuild or what? And how will he stop synthetics from being created again? I guess he is now the guardian of the galaxy, or as Stargazer said: 'The Shepard' of the Reapers.

Well the Queen did lend forces towards the crucible, but she said she would actually fight the reapers, which made me think we were going to see a scene with her fighting a reaper, even the smaller, indoctrinated forces.

But do we really know who is controlling the reapers? The Prothean VI found on Thesia does state that it believes the reapers act as an agent for the cycle, but they are not its masters, but I don't recall that ever being fully explained. I still don't understand what exactly the catalyst is; I gather that the catalyst appears as the boy lost on Earth to have some symbolic meaning to Shepard, but what exactly is the catalyst?

For my first playthrough, when I killed Lang he said this is for Miranda I believe. I know he did not say Thane, but he did survive the suicide mission for me on ME2 (as did everyone). I also choose to control them at the end, and then watched the ending for the destroy option on youtube. The whole "you have three options at the end" doesn't seem necessary since all the endings are essentially the same. The other issue I had with the ending was that you even had an option. No matter what choices you made in the end of ME1 and ME2, the ending was always the same, so I partially expected the same here.
Title: Re: Mass Effect 3
Post by: That Gunslinger on March 14, 2012, 12:54:22 PM
Ok now that I've had a think about it I believe that Shepard never made it to the Citadel. When he awoke after getting hit by the Harbinger's laser, he was from that point on being tested, and if he chose control or synthesis, then he was indoctrinated. If you chose destroy, then the Reapers are defeated, and Shepard lives. At the end of the destroy ending, you see Shepard awaken from the rubble in London, he breathes heavily, and the screen goes black. Therefore he was not indoctrinated. The Crucible was explained by the Prothean VI to have been redesigned many times, I believe that this design allowed Shepard to rewrite the cycle, and the Catalyst was the Reaper's last attempt to indoctrinate him and stop him from choosing to destroy them. It makes sense, I didn't exactly disagree with the Catalyst's explaination of why the cycle existed, it seemed logical, and that's something they used against Shepard.

This means that Shepard never encountered the Illusive man then, and that he was merely an illusion, which is said to be one of the side effects of indoctrination if you look in the codex. Or he could have been real, and the Reapers, knowing that he was under their control, decided to use him as another attempt to stop Shepard. But as I said, I don't think Shepard made it to the Citadel.

I think the ending is great, even more so now that I've looked beyond the apparent facts of it. But I did want a longer cutscene and a bit more closure than it supplied. Not Return of the King amounts of closure, but something more appropriate.
Title: Re: Mass Effect 3
Post by: Capac Amaru on March 14, 2012, 01:21:26 PM
Ok, I'm out. I can't even play the damn thing and you guys are going all spoiler happy.
Title: Re: Mass Effect 3
Post by: Sixftunder on March 14, 2012, 01:25:50 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4H_A7SeawU4 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4H_A7SeawU4)

100% agree with all of this.
Title: Re: Mass Effect 3
Post by: That Gunslinger on March 14, 2012, 04:34:57 PM
You know what, I do too. He's right, I was clutching at straws. I was trying to make the ending something it wasn't, and for that I was wrong, Bioware was wrong. It's like the feeling I had about Dragon Age 2, but that was the majority of the game, it COULDN'T be fixed. However Mass Effect 3 was one of the best games I have ever played, it's perfect, except for the ending. That is something that CAN be fixed.

I think that video says everything that needs to be said on the topic.

Amazing game, bullshit ending. And shame on Alex Casey for defending it. It's one thing to stay true to the artist's vision, but when the majority of fans are saying it's bad, you would be ignorant not to listen, especially when they are paying money for it. I'm just glad that I was so full of emotion at the time of playing that I didn't realise how crappy the ending truly was. I feel sorry for those that were instantly filled with disapointment. Sort it out Bioware.

I want to relax on the beach with my battle-bro Garrus damn it! (That guy's Garrus impression was awesome  ;D)
Title: Re: Mass Effect 3
Post by: Sixftunder on March 14, 2012, 04:49:44 PM
You know what, I do too. He's right, I was clutching at straws. I was trying to make the ending something it wasn't, and for that I was wrong, Bioware was wrong. It's like the feeling I had about Dragon Age 2, but that was the majority of the game, it COULDN'T be fixed. However Mass Effect 3 was one of the best games I have ever played, it's perfect, except for the ending. That is something that CAN be fixed.

I think that video says everything that needs to be said on the topic.

Amazing game, bullshit ending. And shame on Alex Casey for defending it. It's one thing to stay true to the artist's vision, but when the majority of fans are saying it's bad, you would be ignorant not to listen, especially when they are paying money for it. I'm just glad that I was so full of emotion at the time of playing that I didn't realise how crappy the ending truly was. I feel sorry for those that were instantly filled with disapointment. Sort it out Bioware.

I want to relax on the beach with my battle-bro Garrus damn it! (That guy's Garrus impression was awesome  ;D)

Ok, I think I am going crazy! The ending to this game is driving me insane!

I've been researching this whole "everything after Harbinger's beam hits Shepard, before he gets to the beam, is a dream/indoctrination attempt" and now I am starting to believe it. It makes a hell of a lot more sense, and you have to think about it rather than just taking the ending at face value, which is probably what Bioware was trying to do, rather than s simple cut and dry ending.

Watch these two videos (they discuss relatively the same things, but they both point out different things)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PZ7bsIpEKIg (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PZ7bsIpEKIg)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ynYgr1rqEec (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ynYgr1rqEec)

They mention how it could be a dream because the ending takes part in a place between the crucible and the citadel, which is effectively in space, which would mean Shepard couldn't breath if it were real (there is talk about a mass effect field around the Citadel). This could lend support to this theory, but this isn't what proved it for me.

The one thing I never noticed was the Kid in the beginning of the game. When we first see him in the duct and turn away to talk to Anderson, we look back and see he is not there, assuming he left. But is that really what happened?  What really got me was that no one helped this kid onto the shuttle, or even seemed to notice that he was there. Very clever Bioware.

The only issue I have with this is if the Catalyst and the Reapers wanted to indoctrinate Shepard, then why just leave afterward if they succeed?(Control or synthesize ending).
Title: Re: Mass Effect 3
Post by: Postmortem on March 14, 2012, 06:21:21 PM
Synthesis ending is the best. I'll be mad if they release DLC overwriting it.
Title: Re: Mass Effect 3
Post by: That Gunslinger on March 14, 2012, 06:27:59 PM
Damn you! Stop changing my mind! Agh it's totally right too. AAAAAARGH!

Ok fine, so some combination of those two theories is probably accurate. Fine, it was smarter than I thought, but we still didn't get any closure. A game where decisions matter so much, you have to be able to see the consequences, otherwise what's the point. I still want an altered ending. Get rid of the crap with the mass relays exploding, and my crew saying: "Bye, suckers!". Basically ignore everything after the Citadel fires the beam at the relays and the ending is fine, but add many more scenes. If Shepard lives or dies, I want to know for sure. I want my teammates to be pulling me out of that rubble, not pissing off to a distant planet. I want to see what came out of those alliances I worked my ass off for. Do the Turians and Krogan get along? Do the Rachni or Geth get a citadel ambassador? Does Wrex keep the peace with the Krogan clans, and does Tuchanka get revived to it's former glory? So many crucial questions, and no answers is not good enough. I don't want everyone to have a happy ending, but I want them to have an ending.

Wow I really got suckered by the Reapers didn't I? Don't make a me a Spectre any time soon.
Title: Re: Mass Effect 3
Post by: Sixftunder on March 14, 2012, 07:04:06 PM
Damn you! Stop changing my mind! Agh it's totally right too. AAAAAARGH!

Ok fine, so some combination of those two theories is probably accurate. Fine, it was smarter than I thought, but we still didn't get any closure. A game where decisions matter so much, you have to be able to see the consequences, otherwise what's the point. I still want an altered ending. Get rid of the crap with the mass relays exploding, and my crew saying: "Bye, suckers!". Basically ignore everything after the Citadel fires the beam at the relays and the ending is fine, but add many more scenes. If Shepard lives or dies, I want to know for sure. I want my teammates to be pulling me out of that rubble, not pissing off to a distant planet. I want to see what came out of those alliances I worked my ass off for. Do the Turians and Krogan get along? Do the Rachni or Geth get a citadel ambassador? Does Wrex keep the peace with the Krogan clans, and does Tuchanka get revived to it's former glory? So many crucial questions, and no answers is not good enough. I don't want everyone to have a happy ending, but I want them to have an ending.

Wow I really got suckered by the Reapers didn't I? Don't make a me a Spectre any time soon.

It is indeed frustrating. But I agree with you, if this latter theory is correct, we still need closure.

Someone also pointed out that if everything after the blast was a dream or indoctrination effort, then the relays exploding and joker running off could also be a fabrication of Shepard's mind. All in all, DLC will definitely be coming out, and I hope it sheds some more light on this. I was angry and upset at first, now I am just more confused and curious. Maybe this was Bioware's intention?
Title: Re: Mass Effect 3
Post by: That Gunslinger on March 14, 2012, 07:25:46 PM
Maybe this was Bioware's intention?
Or EA's. You make a fair point about the Joker ending part, but all it has achieved is frustrating the fans, that's it. Think about it, everyone wants a different ending, EA releases it. Everyone buys it because lets face it, you're going to. EA gets even richer while Bioware takes the hate. I know publishers have away of corrupting artistic vision, but Bioware has to take some of the blame here. I just wish publishers would do it for the art of it, as well as the money. There has to be a balance.

On one hand I hate the idea that we have to pay for the actual ending of the game ('cause it won't be free), but I and the majority of fans will buy it without a single thought because we want resolution, and....you know what? No, I don't want DLC, I want the 16 endings we were fucking promised and I want them now. What the hell would Shepard be fighting anyway? Theres no real gameplay to be had there, nor do I want any. I finished Shepard's story, good or bad, dead or alive, I deserve to see the consequences of the choices I made. Am I acting self-entitled? Maybe. But I want what I was promised for my money. It's not even able the money, I genuinely care about those characters, and what did they do? They fucked off when Shepard needed them the most. They would never do that.
Title: Re: Mass Effect 3
Post by: Sixftunder on March 14, 2012, 07:40:29 PM
Maybe this was Bioware's intention?
Or EA's. You make a fair point about the Joker ending part, but all it has achieved is frustrating the fans, that's it. Think about it, everyone wants a different ending, EA releases it. Everyone buys it because lets face it, you're going to. EA gets even richer while Bioware takes the hate. I know publishers have away of corrupting artistic vision, but Bioware has to take some of the blame here. I just wish publishers would do it for the art of it, as well as the money. There has to be a balance.

On one hand I hate the idea that we have to pay for the actual ending of the game ('cause it won't be free), but I and the majority of fans will buy it without a single thought because we want resolution, and....you know what? No, I don't want DLC, I want the 16 endings we were fucking promised and I want them now. What the hell would Shepard be fighting anyway? Theres no real gameplay to be had there, nor do I want any. I finished Shepard's story, good or bad, dead or alive, I deserve to see the consequences of the choices I made. Am I acting self-entitled? Maybe. But I want what I was promised for my money. It's not even able the money, I genuinely care about those characters, and what did they do? They fucked off when Shepard needed them the most. They would never do that.

I completely agree with everything you just said. The DLC absolutely needs to be free. We were promised an end to the saga, and it wasn't delivered.

With a little more research, there have been rumors of a DLC pack entitled "the Truth DLC" being released in April or May, in which the final decision made in the game with have an effect on the DLC.

I think I am at the point that I am going to accept the hallucination/indoctrination theory and wait for new DLC. Because of this, I am  going to finish my second playthrough, on Insanity mind you, and choose the destroy option.
Title: Re: Mass Effect 3
Post by: Sixftunder on March 14, 2012, 07:57:41 PM
I know I just said I was going to accept the discussed theory as true for now and not think it over anymore, but I just a thought, and its probably insignificant. This damn ending is indoctrinating my mind!!!

Does anyone remember what the conduit is implied to be in ME1? I mean, we find out the conduit is this beam thing in ME3, but what was it described as in ME1?
Title: Re: Mass Effect 3
Post by: That Gunslinger on March 14, 2012, 08:02:29 PM
Is this what you mean?
I hope this is true...but the skeptic in me is saying it really isn't.

http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20120314102530/masseffect/images/9/98/New_DLC_-The_Truth.png (http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20120314102530/masseffect/images/9/98/New_DLC_-The_Truth.png)

Pleasepleasepleasepleaseplease be true.

The conduit was a 'back door' for the 'scout' Reaper, which was Sovereign in this case, to enter the Citadel. I think it would allow the entire Reaper fleet to instantly be transported to the Milky Way. Presumably they have some connected relay or whatever that allows them to do that from dark Space. I haven't played ME1 in a while though, so I may be wrong.
Title: Re: Mass Effect 3
Post by: Sixftunder on March 14, 2012, 08:08:41 PM
Is this what you mean?
I hope this is true...but the skeptic in me is saying it really isn't.

http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20120314102530/masseffect/images/9/98/New_DLC_-The_Truth.png (http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20120314102530/masseffect/images/9/98/New_DLC_-The_Truth.png)

Pleasepleasepleasepleaseplease be true.

The conduit was a 'back door' for the 'scout' Reaper, which was Sovereign in this case, to enter the Citadel. I think it would allow the entire Reaper fleet to instantly be transported to the Milky Way. Presumably they have some connected relay or whatever that allows them to do that from dark Space. I haven't played ME1 in a while though, so I may be wrong.

I did not stumble upon that link, but I had heard everything in that post from other sources, so yes that is what I mean.

So about the conduit..hmm.

That sounds right, but I have one issue with it. When you speak with the Prothean VI on Thesia, it shows a display of the galaxy and how the reaper forces move from the outside of the galaxy inward during the end of each cycle. So did every cycle manage to "close" this "back door" as well?
Title: Re: Mass Effect 3
Post by: That Gunslinger on March 14, 2012, 08:21:34 PM
That sounds right, but I have one issue with it. When you speak with the Prothean VI on Thesia, it shows a display of the galaxy and how the reaper forces move from the outside of the galaxy inward during the end of each cycle. So did every cycle manage to "close" this "back door" as well?

Oh yeah, well perhaps they do appear on the rim of the Galaxy, working their way inwards. It would make sense if they wanted to wipe every species out (or most of them anyway). It's more logical than appearing at the Citadel and causing every species to scatter themselves. But then why would they be transported there and not the Citadel since it was the Citadel that allowed to to be transported in the first place? I think it's just a mistake on the writer's part. It looked more dramatic than each cycle showing random destruction, after all the Reapers want 'order', so they're gonna be cold and logical about it, like a machine.

Oh and I don't think the Conduit was a back door for Sovereign actually, but rather his 'agent', in other words Saren in this cycle was the one who opened the Citadel's arms, allowing Sovereign to do his business.
Title: Re: Mass Effect 3
Post by: Postmortem on March 17, 2012, 03:37:58 AM
Oh yeah, my thoughts:

http://gamesasartnow.wordpress.com/2012/03/15/mass-effect-a-personal-journey/
Title: Re: Mass Effect 3
Post by: That Gunslinger on March 17, 2012, 09:36:13 AM
Oh yeah, my thoughts:

http://gamesasartnow.wordpress.com/2012/03/15/mass-effect-a-personal-journey/

Beautifully written man. And I agree with it mostly. I think the endnig is very smart, I was fooled by the indoctrination, not just Shepard. BUT everything after the Citadel fires is illogical nonsense. If the Relays blow up, everyone either dies in the blasts or starves to death on Earth, so there's no even vaguely good ending. But even worse than this is the fact that Joker and my crew were happy to leave me behind when I needed them most. They would never do that. But the ending before that is really nice for the most part. I just want content after that which shows what became of my efforts. Not DLC, but a nice long cutscene out of a possible 16 nice long cutscenes, one for each ending which is what I paid for.

Glad to hear there's another Dark Tower fan, I thought the ending to that was brilliant. ( I'm a bit wary about the proposed Movie/TV show though, if it was just a TV show it could be brilliant, but movies couldn't do it justice.)
Title: Re: Mass Effect 3
Post by: That Gunslinger on March 21, 2012, 04:27:29 PM
Bioware have just confirmed that they are working on new content to change the ending. I am happy. I don't care if I have to pay for it or not, I'm just glad that they didn't ignore the community. There is hope it seems.
Title: Re: Mass Effect 3
Post by: Sixftunder on March 21, 2012, 04:39:19 PM
Bioware have just confirmed that they are working on new content to change the ending. I am happy. I don't care if I have to pay for it or not, I'm just glad that they didn't ignore the community. There is hope it seems.

Well, I was playing online last night and one of my buddies had the latest (April) edition of Game Informer in which there was an article about this. I don't remember word for word what he said, but I believe it was along the lines that the DLC would be a continuation of the story, not a re-write. He also said that the article made it seem that the story expanding DLC would focus on the members of Shepard's crew after the Reaper's defeat.

If the Indoctrination theory is correct, which I fully believe now and have more evidence to back it up if you want to further the discussion, then I would much rather have a continuation of the story after the indoctrination attempt rather than a re-write. The indoctrination theory is so well done that if proved right, I would feel much better about the ending because of how well it was thought out, although still upset we didn't get the full ending in-game as opposed to seeing the ending through DLC. Also, assuming it's true, at least for the destroy ending, then all we have done is defeated the indoctrination attempt, not the reapers (I WANT A BATTLE WITH HARBINGER! OR AT LEAST SOME DIALOGUE!)

I am having issues with my print issues being delivered to my house, as well as the online version, but I will get that article up here as soon as I can.

Title: Re: Mass Effect 3
Post by: That Gunslinger on March 21, 2012, 09:40:05 PM
Yeah I liked the indoctrination theory, as it IS true (there's too much evidence to support it), and I was genuinely fooled by it. Though it was nearly midnight at the time...and I'd been playing for five hours straight...damn you Harbinger, truly a worthy foe. And yeah I had wondered about whether the Reapers had been destroyed. Because I would prefer that the deus ex machina that was the crucible didn't work to be honest. I want Shepard to rally the fleets with a heroic speech. I want the forces that I have gathered to make individual appearances. I want to actually take back Earth. So I suppose there is some gameplay to be had in a DLC.

What annoys me is that Bioware have clearly cut corners to deliver the game before the deadline. They may say that this was their original vision, but I highly doubt that. If 98% of the fans realise that the ending was bad, then some of the industries finest must have have noticed it over the 2-3 year development cycle of the game. I hate to jump on the bandwagon, but EA really is as evil as it seems. I really hope Bioware can escape before they have their reputation ruined entirely.

But, despite the massive negativity about the game, I can gladly say (if the DLC makes the ending better), that this was one of the best games I have ever played.
Title: Re: Mass Effect 3
Post by: Sixftunder on March 22, 2012, 02:00:31 AM
I discover new evidence everyday to support the indoctrination theory (today was the eyes of Saren and TIM, which was more obvious. If you notice in the Synergy and Control ending, Sheppard's eyes look indoctrinated).

I heard a rumor (no sources) that the original ending was scraped because it was leaked a few months before release, so they completely re-did it. Whatever the reason for this sub-par ending, I am really just more anxious to see what the nest DLC will bring (resolution would be nice).

that this was one of the best games I have ever played.

Agreed.
Title: Re: Mass Effect 3
Post by: That Gunslinger on March 22, 2012, 08:15:32 AM
Yeah the original Dark Energy plot line was much more interesting, and consistent with the first two games. I have no idea why they didn't keep it. It was alluded to throughout ME1 and 2, and then just dropped for ME3. Really silly if you ask me.
Title: Re: Mass Effect 3
Post by: Sixftunder on March 22, 2012, 11:51:26 AM
I was never really aware of this Dark Energy theme until I saw a video that mentioned it the other day. Can you explain it, or know of a link or video that can?

I don't mind the whole organics vs. synthetics, or man vs machine plot, but this is what I can't stand:

(http://30.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m14p0grq6M1qk6yhjo1_500.jpg)
Title: Re: Mass Effect 3
Post by: That Gunslinger on March 22, 2012, 03:17:04 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HUqAhKW7498&feature=my_liked_videos&list=LL97AoKmPbZWiXPZJY8dYLxg

I'm not sure if this explained it, but it at least explained it's context in the trilogy. It's quite long, but this guy is very smart. Bioware would do well to have someone like him on their team.
Title: Re: Mass Effect 3
Post by: Sixftunder on March 22, 2012, 03:55:22 PM
Yeah, that's the video I watched in which I first learned about the Dark Energy concept.

From what I gather from him, Dark energy is bad, and it spreads throughout the galaxy. The reapers were built to try and stop its growth, but no reaper has been able to do so, so they destroy all organic life every 50,000 years to slow the dark energy's progression. But now the reapers believe that a human reaper may be able to finally stop the dark energy?

I mean, this concept could still play out in ME3 depending on what this new DLC actually is.
Title: Re: Mass Effect 3
Post by: That Gunslinger on March 22, 2012, 05:14:41 PM
Yeah it could. Since the indoctrination theory puts into doubt anything on the Citadel, everything that the Starchild said could be lies meant to coerce Shepard into indoctrination. Including the 'Yo dawg...' explanation.
Title: Re: Mass Effect 3
Post by: Sixftunder on April 05, 2012, 06:22:02 PM
So I suppose I am only talking to Gunslinger about this at the moment, but anyway...

The new DLC has finally be announced; Mass Effect 3: Extended Cut. It is due out in the summer of this year.

The DLC will NOT change the existing ending.

 According to Casey Hudson...
Quote
The goal of the DLC is not to provide a new ending to the game, rather to offer fans additional context and answers to the end of Commander Shepardís story.

I am a little torn on this. It makes me think if Bioware really did listen to the fan feedback or not. Sure, the main problem I had with the ending was that is lacked closure and now the DLC SHOULD (keyword) elaborate more on the plot holes of the ending. I just don't see how they are going to be able to do it without changing some parts of the existing ending.

Another huge issue I have is with this whole starchild crap. They make it seem as if they are just expanding on what happened immediately after the end, which means that whole dialogue with the starchild, or lack thereof, will still be there without any additional chances to use the dialogue tree. If your not going to change this, then you definitively just pissed off a lot of people right there.

I honestly think that EA and Bioware are going to lose a lot of consumers over this new DLC. In fact, EA was just announced as the winner of the Consumerist's "worst company" award yesterday.

How do you feel about this DLC?

P.S. I'm hopeful that 343i won't have this same kind of issue when they close out the Reclaimer trilogy, but they should be taking notes anyway on how not to piss off your fans, even though the two series are completely different.
Title: Re: Mass Effect 3
Post by: Postmortem on April 05, 2012, 06:26:32 PM
I seriously don't understand why people keep overlooking the indoctrination theory. It's practically been proven at this point...
Title: Re: Mass Effect 3
Post by: Sixftunder on April 05, 2012, 06:38:31 PM
I was holding on to that theory for dear life until now....

(I was going to inset a quote from an earlier post where I stated I was sticking by that theory until the new DLC came out, but I can't find it).

I mean, I guess this extended cut could prove the indoctrination theory, but I have little hope for that at this point.
Title: Re: Mass Effect 3
Post by: Sixftunder on April 05, 2012, 06:40:56 PM
Ah, here we go, the last post from me on page three of this thread:

Quote
I think I am at the point that I am going to accept the hallucination/indoctrination theory and wait for new DLC. Because of this, I am  going to finish my second playthrough, on Insanity mind you, and choose the destroy option.
Title: Re: Mass Effect 3
Post by: That Gunslinger on April 05, 2012, 07:20:14 PM
Lol I was just about to post the new here! I think this is great news, and most importantly, it's free!
Even if the indoctrination theory is proven false (which is highly unlikely), then I don't mind too much. All I wanted was resolution with the characters, and even some Dragon Age style prologue text would be brilliant in my opinion (though I assume it will be more than that).

 This is great news, however you look at it. I still have faith in Bioware, as it's fine to make mistakes, as long as you admit to them and try to change what you did wrong (or at least add a bit on at the end ;)).

And somebodies hand had better pull Shepard out of that rubble at the end...maybe a certain Turian's hand...
I just realised something: How are they going to extent the endings for the Synthesis/Control endings since Shepard is dead or huskified?

Oh and I'm nearly finished my new playthrough too. I just saved both the Geth and the Quarians this time, it felt good. I'm still wiping tears from my eyes about Legion though... :'(
Title: Re: Mass Effect 3
Post by: Sixftunder on April 05, 2012, 07:34:42 PM
Oh and I'm nearly finished my new playthrough too. I just saved both the Geth and the Quarians this time, it felt good. I'm still wiping tears from my eyes about Legion though... :'(

So did you have to replay through mass effect 2 to keep Tali within the fleet, or did you already do that and just didn't have the option the first time?
Title: Re: Mass Effect 3
Post by: That Gunslinger on April 05, 2012, 07:38:03 PM
Oh and I'm nearly finished my new playthrough too. I just saved both the Geth and the Quarians this time, it felt good. I'm still wiping tears from my eyes about Legion though... :'(

So did you have to replay through mass effect 2 to keep Tali within the fleet, or did you already do that and just didn't have the option the first time?

I missed one of the Rannoch missions (the one where you go into the Geth consensus) so I couldn't do the speech challenge and the Geth wiped out the Quarians. (And Tali jumped off a cliff). Sad times. But with the magic of TIME TRAVEL it's all OK now!
Title: Re: Mass Effect 3
Post by: Tar Alacrin on April 05, 2012, 09:04:17 PM

 
I havent played mass effect 3 yet... So i really cant contribute to the convo here. Except to say:


P.S: Im hopeful that 343i won't have this same kind of issue when they close out the Reclaimer trilogy, but they should be taking notes anyway on how not to piss off your fans, even though the two series are completely different.

When has halo ever given us closure? Halo CE: cheif is floating in space in cryo. Halo 2: cheif is hurtleing towards earth in an epic clifhanger. Halo 3: cheif is, again just floating in space. This time, farther away than before.

Also; Halo Wars: everybody is flating in space for forever
Title: Re: Mass Effect 3
Post by: DangerousDave on April 05, 2012, 09:29:18 PM
Well, there's closure, and then there's closure. Halo has often left us drifting (literally), but that's only after tying up the main threads--Halo's been destroyed, Flood's been stopped, Covenant denied a war-ending weapon. People don't really like stories that just *end*--there's always some sort of continuance in any good arc, whether or not that's as simple as "they all lived happily ever after" or "and some say the killer still stalks these here woods".

Shows or games that have definitely answered every single question are never going to be satisfying.
Title: Re: Mass Effect 3
Post by: Postmortem on April 05, 2012, 09:30:27 PM
I just realised something: How are they going to extent the endings for the Synthesis/Control endings since Shepard is dead or huskified?

THIS, is what I'm wondering. It's my biggest concern at this point.

And in response to Tar: Different kind of closure. In the case of Halo, the conflicts tend to be resolved, but the character's story isn't over. In Mass Effect, it's essentially the exact opposite. Basically what Dave said.
Title: Re: Mass Effect 3
Post by: Sixftunder on April 06, 2012, 01:07:42 PM
I just realised something: How are they going to extent the endings for the Synthesis/Control endings since Shepard is dead or huskified?

THIS, is what I'm wondering. It's my biggest concern at this point.

And in response to Tar: Different kind of closure. In the case of Halo, the conflicts tend to be resolved, but the character's story isn't over. In Mass Effect, it's essentially the exact opposite. Basically what Dave said.


On top of what everyone else was saying, we actually know MC is alive. At the end of ME3, it's a little vague.
Title: Re: Mass Effect 3
Post by: Sixftunder on April 16, 2012, 08:03:45 PM
I found this unofficial "interview" with one of the writers for ME3, Patrick Weekes. Read the pre-interview stuff first, as it explains that the Q&A is paraphrased.

http://social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/355/index/11154234 (http://social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/355/index/11154234)
Title: Re: Mass Effect 3
Post by: DangerousDave on April 16, 2012, 08:21:15 PM
Huh. I couldn't follow a lot of it since I haven't played the games, but a few things stuck out to me. One thing being that it sounds like they just didn't think all the way through about possible ramifications with certain details, and the second being that you *really* should not try to post such a detailed "transcript" of a recollected conversation. :)
Title: Re: Mass Effect 3
Post by: Sixftunder on April 16, 2012, 08:35:45 PM
If you had the chance to have a Q&A with Frankie, but you couldn't immediately write down or record his answers, wouldn't you do your best to bring back what you had learned to us? :)
Title: Re: Mass Effect 3
Post by: DangerousDave on April 16, 2012, 09:00:28 PM
Well, I think there's a fine line between the following:

1) "Hey guys, I met Frankie at the Whole Foods and he told me that Master Chief was going to build himself a space motorcycle and destroy a Forerunner armada."

2) Q: So what's Master Chief going to do in the sequel?
A: He's going to build himself a 1952 Vincent Black Lightning, resurrect zombie Richard Thompson, and using two tin cans, a dud frag grenade and half a copy of Atlas Shrugged with develop a MacGyver-esque contraption to destroy over 9000 Forerunner Bronies."

Yes, perhaps my most tortured example of all time, but I hope you get my drift. (You can also tell what's currently playing in iTunes!)

Maybe.

Paraphrasing does not mean you try to reconstruct entire sentences for multiple questions. Worst of all, it probably makes some people less likely to chat up fans in that sort of situation because they don't want their words to be twisted, accidentally or not. The guy who wrote up that conversation clearly was coming from a certain perspective and I think that colored his recollections.
Title: Re: Mass Effect 3
Post by: That Gunslinger on April 16, 2012, 09:04:43 PM
Eugh, I usually have the attitude of "I'll judge it when I have it", but I can't deny my negative feelings towards this. It really annoys me that Bioware won't admit their mistakes. The rest of the game is bloody brilliant, and I don't see why they can't judge rip out that horrible bit at the end and make the game consistently good. It can't be much more effort than this new...oh sorry...'extended' ending DLC. You don't extend narrative incoherence. That just makes it worse.

I know it was paraphrased, and the fan probably was biased, but if the text is to be believed even a little bit then the guy being interviewed really seemed to be making these explanations as an afterthought.
"Oh right...that... yeah you see... uh... THIS happens, so it's fine... see?"

No Bioware... no. This is your last chance... and it isn't looking good. It could have been fixed relatively easily too. Please prove me wrong.

...I like using ellipsis...  ;)
Title: Re: Mass Effect 3
Post by: Sixftunder on April 16, 2012, 09:53:47 PM
...I like using ellipsis...  ;)

Dont we all :)

But on the subject of not admitting their mistakes, well, that's exactly what they did when they announced the new DLC.

Taken from Bioware's website, regarding the Mass Effect 3 Extended Cut: 

Quote
Are there going to be more/different endings or ending DLCs in the future?

No. BioWare strongly believes in the teamís artistic vision for the end of this arc of the Mass Effect franchise. The extended cut DLC will expand on the existing endings, but no further ending DLC is planned.

Why are you releasing the Extended Cut DLC?

Though we remain committed and are proud of the artistic choices we made in the main game, we are aware that there are some fans who would like more closure to Mass Effect 3. The goal of the DLC is not to provide a new ending to the game, rather to offer fans additional context and answers to the end of Commander Shepardís story.

Basically, my interpretation of this is "we are releasing this because you (the fans) have the problem, so we're gonna make it look like we are the good guys by meeting you halfway." They just won't admit the fact that they made a mistake. I was arguing this with one of my friends, and he pointed this out this quote to me from an IGN article from Producer Mike Gamble during a panel discussion:

Quote
The dev team stands by what was released in the core product and we're very proud of it. It was important though for us to listen to the community, and a lot of that feedback didn't come until the game came out. Once we were listening we decided to include the Extended Cut. It wasn't in the game because we didn't know there was such a huge demand for it, to be honest with you

I call BS. Really? You didn't think there was a demand for it? I can even put into words how ridiculous that sounds.

Nevertheless, I will still be looking forward to these watching these deleted, unimportant moments during the ending of ME3. 
Title: Re: Mass Effect 3
Post by: That Gunslinger on April 17, 2012, 07:20:38 AM
If they were adding additional endings or changing the other endings, uh ending then they would be listening to fan feedback. But they are not, they're extending the already incoherent ending. It's going to take a lot more than a few new cutscenes to fully explain it. And yeah they constantly bury their heads in the sand with things like fan-feedback.

"What's that you want an ending that made sense...oh sorry, here you go, we had no idea you didn't like being betrayed by your teammates when you needed them most, or seeing the galaxy all stranded on Earth with no explanation of what happened afterwards. We thought you wanted the core values of the game to change in the last 10 minutes...so...yeah...our bad."
Title: Re: Mass Effect 3
Post by: Sixftunder on April 17, 2012, 11:27:31 AM
I hear you Gunslinger. I really want to see how they are going to explain this one:

From the unofficial interview:
Quote
Did the mass relays pull an Arrival and go supernova?

No, they didn't. (i'm paraphrasing here, please don't interpret this too hard) They overloaded, they didn't rupture. We really didn't mean to imply that the whole galaxy had been destroyed. People interpreted the ending in ways we really didn't expect.

Ok, first of all, you didn't expect us to think like that when the only time we can reference what happens when a mass relay explodes (I don't care how it exploded) is from the arrival DLC? I mean, the ending didn't even make an attempt to distinguish the two (an "overload" from an explosion), so that is the worst counter-argument I have ever heard.

Secondly, although Patrick Weekes does not come right out and say this, it is implied from some of the other questions (such as people on the citadel surviving, which in and of itself is for another rant) that the overloaded mass relay's will not harm the fleets within the Sol system because an overload does not go supernova. OK, I could accept this, if they didn't already throw that possibility out the window. If the blast didn't effect the fleets at Earth, then why did it damage, severely I might add, the Normandy when it was running away?



Title: Re: Mass Effect 3
Post by: That Gunslinger on April 17, 2012, 02:05:26 PM
Exactly. In one variation of the ending, the entire Earth gets scorched! So your telling me that all of the fleets that were closer to the Sol Relay would be undamaged. SEEMS LEGIT Bioware.  ???
Title: Re: Mass Effect 3
Post by: Sixftunder on May 07, 2012, 02:18:40 PM
Regarding Postmortem's comment regarding ME3 in the Halo 4 writers thread (I dont believe we can pull quotes from other threads, right?).....

I have to strongly disagree with you. Yes the game was very enjoyable, although as Capac said, there were some pretty big bugs in the game, but none of them were "game killers" and again, overall it was very enjoyable.

However, in a game like Mass Effect where the narrative is so important that the players are actually involved in shaping that fiction, the ending is just as important, if not more so, that the gameplay and experience itself. In Halo, we are given an objective to complete, we do it, and we see what happens. We aren't given the choice to decide whether or not to leave Cortana behind on High Charity at the end of Halo 2 (which now that I think about it, I'm not sure if it would have made a difference either way; topic for another discussion). In Mass Effect, we are given an objective, but we can choose to do said objective or not, and if we choose to complete said objective, there is rarely ever one way to do it, and different people live or die depending on how we accomplish that objective. Are we entitled to see how these choices are reflected in the finale of the series? Well, if you promised it, then your damn right.

Here is a great article that shows the promises made by Bioware for the final installment, sources included:

http://alizrak.wordpress.com/2012/03/18/the-broken-promises-of-mass-effect-3-spoilers/ (http://alizrak.wordpress.com/2012/03/18/the-broken-promises-of-mass-effect-3-spoilers/)

Quote
“Experience the beginning, middle, and end of an emotional story unlike any
other, where the decisions you make completely shape your experience
and outcome.”

Poeple have tried to defend this by saying that Shepard says goodbye to all of the people that are still alive over the course of the games towards the end before the Final assault on the beam on Earth. Ok, but with all of the  time invested in the game, I'm sure each fan of the series can tell you which characters made it to the end of the series (Wrex died in my play through, but everyone survived the suicide mission in 2). You could have at least showed some of the surviving characters charging into battle, speaking of which....

Quote from: Mac Walters (Lead Writer)
“[The presence of the Rachni] has huge consequences in Mass
Effect 3. Even just in the final battle with the Reapers.”

Bullshit. They are never seen again after the "Rachni Mission". Capac can back me up on this. Without driving to far off topic, I understand things get cut, but if you make a promise like that, and you later find out that it will be cut after you made the initial promise, why wouldn't you say so? We are promised that the chief and the UNSC Infinity will at some point meet up in Halo 4. If the Infinity isn't even in Halo 4 at all, wouldn't you want an explanation?

And then there are the promises for the ending itself, before the game was even released. If you'r really interested in them, read the article above. I just wanted to point out one:

Quote from: Mike Gamble (Associate Producer)
“There are many different endings. We wouldn’t do it any other way. How
could you go through all three campaigns playing as your Shepard and
then be forced into a bespoke ending that everyone gets? But I can’t
say any more than that…”

Do I really need to argue this one? When I heard many different endings, I expected  vastly different endings, not ones with different color explosions, or cutting to black a little earlier than some of the other endings. I think this image just about wraps things up for the "broken promises" part of my rant:

(http://i686.photobucket.com/albums/vv229/Oregondiver1/xUq9t.png)

Then there are the plot holes. I'm sure everyone who doesn't care about the  series has stopped reading this post, and I don't feel like re-writing all of them, but I believe Capac, Gunslinger and myself have done a pretty good job of pointing them out in this thread. But let me see if I can establish an analogy to bring it home.

Halo 3's ending via Bioware/EA

Keep everything the same right up to when Cortana says "It's been an honor serving with you John". Next scene is the Arbiter on-board his ship with half-jaw, looking at the scorched section of Earth that was obliterated to get to the portal. "Take us home" the arbiter says, and the ship leaves. If you beat the game on Legendary, you see chief take a breath floating in space. The end (thanks for your money).

How did the arbiter make it back to Earth but the Chief didnt? (kind of like the Normandy situation)
IS ANYONE ON EARTH STILL ALIVE? Lord Hood? Any marines that bear resemblance to some of the employees at Bungie?
If there is anyone on Earth, is there some kind of peace still between us and the Elites?
and last but, but no where near the least, IS MASTER CHIEF ALIVE?!?!?!?! how do we know that isn't his dying breath?

I'll end it here. Postmortem, I understand where your coming from, but if you haven't invested yourself in this series, I don't expect you, or anyone else that hasn't, to fully grasp what went wrong here. I really wish I could describe my emotions or the look on my face when I finally beat the game. I seriously have never felt anything like it, but it was not good.

Edit: Gunslinger, I just read your post about the emotional attachment in ME compared to Halo. You're absolutely right, and this wound will always be open. If you haven't played the games, I don't think you cant speak for or against the ending/games :)
Title: Re: Mass Effect 3
Post by: Sixftunder on May 07, 2012, 03:03:05 PM
Now that I think about it, I may not have countered your thought on how the ending shouldn't generalize your gratification of the item being considered as a whole.

Yes, your right about that, to an extent. Lets say your playing a round of matchmaking competitive multiplayer in Halo. You may be doing really well and having a great time, getting a killing spree with a banshee, performing an assassination on a player with the sniper, getting a show stopper, etc. However, though all these good times, your team loses the match. I wouldn't say that the experience sucked overall because of that.

However, Mass Effect is an extreme exception to that. Here is a quick analogy I came up with for why the end result kind of justifies why we are severely disappointed overall.

Let's say you are a roller coaster enthusiast (Mass Effect fan). There is this new ride opening up that promises to have the tallest and steepest drop in the world at the end of the ride. You wait in a huge line to get on the ride (waiting for the game's release). You finally get there, and the beginning of the ride is great; you enjoy all the twists and turns, loops, etc. Then you begin the climb to the final part of the ride. You get to the very top, and then all of the sudden, the ride breaks down, and you have to get off and walk all the way to the end of the ride. It is never fixed and the ride closes. How would you feel then? You were promised something (a stunning conclusion to the series) and it is never delivered.

Not the best analogy, but I think it works.
Title: Re: Mass Effect 3
Post by: That Gunslinger on May 07, 2012, 03:24:27 PM
I agree with everything you have said. I don't blame people who haven't become attached to the series who say what they do. I'd say stuff like "They're self-entitled brats" and "It's about the journey" too probably. But I am emotionally attached to the universe and characters, and I really want to play the trilogy again. I couldn't wait for the last mission to end so I could start plotting my next playthrough, but then the end came and I see no point now.

It went from he most replayable game series ever, to much, much less than that. I think of the whole series as a product now, I can't just play through one or two of them if I were to begin again. I'm not going through 200+ more hours to have my new Shepard go through that again. What were they thinking introducing a new character right at the end of the story, that's just a basic writing mistake.

Do you know when the ending DLC is coming out? I'm honestly just going to wait for the fan reaction to it before even downloading it. If they aren't changing it, then I don't see why I would want to play it. It's just pouring salt on the wound at this point.

Oh, and don't get me wrong, it's one of the best games that I've ever played, but I can't see myself playing it again to be honest, not any time soon anyway. Probably just to finish my Insanity run, but I stopped doing that a few missions in. I just didn't see the point.

I should've just let Marauder Shields kill me damn it. "Shepard The internet warned us about the endings, but we didn't listen."

Your Halo analogy is probably the best way to get across our points on this site to the non fans, but even then there's no way that that would have been anywhere near as disappointing. Honestly man, bring on Halo 4. It will always be my favourite gaming series. It's never anything emotionally spectacular, but it never disappoints. The king of Sci-fi gaming is back!

And Six, those analogies kind of work, but imagine that YOU had designed and painstakingly crafted that roller-coaster to your image over hundreds of hours, and then it breaks down. That's the uh... roller-coaster equivalent...

Why do I end up writing walls of text in every post these days?  :P
Title: Re: Mass Effect 3
Post by: Sixftunder on May 07, 2012, 03:38:46 PM
Why do I end up writing walls of text in every post these days?  :P

If you didn't, I would take you seriously :) Some things just warrant more than a few lines of text.

And you inclusion of painstakingly making that roller coaster does much better justice to my analogy.

I've been checking, but I haven't heard anything more on any actual release date; I'll post it as soon as I find out, if you don't beat me to it.

And I'm right there with you; I was going to start all the way from the beginning of the series once I beat ME3 initially. After seeing the ending though, I traded in 1 and 2. I will probably download the extended cut DLC, so I'll let you know what I think of it when it comes out, but after that, I will probably trade 3 in as well, unless they have something else other than just new multiplayer DLC.


Title: Re: Mass Effect 3
Post by: Capac Amaru on May 07, 2012, 08:35:26 PM
Why do I end up writing walls of text in every post these days?  :P

If you didn't, I would take you seriously :) Some things just warrant more than a few lines of text.

And you inclusion of painstakingly making that roller coaster does much better justice to my analogy.

I've been checking, but I haven't heard anything more on any actual release date; I'll post it as soon as I find out, if you don't beat me to it.

And I'm right there with you; I was going to start all the way from the beginning of the series once I beat ME3 initially. After seeing the ending though, I traded in 1 and 2. I will probably download the extended cut DLC, so I'll let you know what I think of it when it comes out, but after that, I will probably trade 3 in as well, unless they have something else other than just new multiplayer DLC.

There is also the upcoming 'clarity' dlc that will explain why physics is wrong and how leaf and machine can combine in harmony.
Title: Re: Mass Effect 3
Post by: Sixftunder on May 07, 2012, 08:47:26 PM
Why do I end up writing walls of text in every post these days?  :P

If you didn't, I would take you seriously :) Some things just warrant more than a few lines of text.

And you inclusion of painstakingly making that roller coaster does much better justice to my analogy.

I've been checking, but I haven't heard anything more on any actual release date; I'll post it as soon as I find out, if you don't beat me to it.

And I'm right there with you; I was going to start all the way from the beginning of the series once I beat ME3 initially. After seeing the ending though, I traded in 1 and 2. I will probably download the extended cut DLC, so I'll let you know what I think of it when it comes out, but after that, I will probably trade 3 in as well, unless they have something else other than just new multiplayer DLC.

There is also the upcoming 'clarity' dlc that will explain why physics is wrong and how leaf and machine can combine in harmony.

Capac: See the highlighted and underlined portion of my quote. Is this what you are referring to or is there another DLC coming out that I'm not aware of?
Title: Re: Mass Effect 3
Post by: Capac Amaru on May 07, 2012, 09:36:29 PM
Why do I end up writing walls of text in every post these days?  :P

If you didn't, I would take you seriously :) Some things just warrant more than a few lines of text.

And you inclusion of painstakingly making that roller coaster does much better justice to my analogy.

I've been checking, but I haven't heard anything more on any actual release date; I'll post it as soon as I find out, if you don't beat me to it.

And I'm right there with you; I was going to start all the way from the beginning of the series once I beat ME3 initially. After seeing the ending though, I traded in 1 and 2. I will probably download the extended cut DLC, so I'll let you know what I think of it when it comes out, but after that, I will probably trade 3 in as well, unless they have something else other than just new multiplayer DLC.

There is also the upcoming 'clarity' dlc that will explain why physics is wrong and how leaf and machine can combine in harmony.

Capac: See the highlighted and underlined portion of my quote. Is this what you are referring to or is there another DLC coming out that I'm not aware of?

Hmm... it my half asleep state I missed that bit, that is what I meant. Although there is also the continuing adventures of Captain Jack Shepard as advertised in the derpy 'but dlc' splash screen after the game credits to look forward to. haha look forward too...
Title: Re: Mass Effect 3
Post by: Sixftunder on May 16, 2012, 10:18:45 PM
Just found this documentary today. It was posted on May 8, after the announcement of the extended cut DLC. It is about an hour and a half in length discussing the Indoctrination theory. It is called simply, The Indoctrination Theory - A Documentary. I could comment on it, but there is no point. It is so well done that he asks the questions at the end of video that we would be disusing here. If your a fan (Gunslinger and Capac) and have the time, it is definitely worth checking out.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=caAqFFhBn2U (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=caAqFFhBn2U)
Title: Re: Mass Effect 3
Post by: That Gunslinger on May 18, 2012, 07:58:13 PM
I just watched that six and it was brilliant. Not too much new information for the first half or so but when I saw that 'Dream foliage' file and the indoctrinated eyes on Shepard I was amazed. It debunked a few of the commonly accepted theories as well. I'm pretty hopeful for the DLC now actually. I might as well enjoy it as much as I can, even if I'll never be able to experience the ending for the first time again. The wound is healing it seems.
Title: Re: Mass Effect 3
Post by: Sixftunder on May 18, 2012, 10:17:00 PM
Yeah, the dream foliage thing I had never heard of before, but that seems really supportive of the Indoctrination theory.

When I first heard of the Extended cut DLC, I thought it completely debunked the Indoctrination theory, but I am a little more hopeful now. As he said, if this really was the original intent of the writers, then I believe it could make he series go down as one of the best in video game history ever, otherwise it would go down as one of the worst. Although I don't like the idea of not having the full ending included with the on disc game, but I could let it slide this one time.....

I also really wish we had a confirmed date for the extended cut DLC.
Title: Re: Mass Effect 3
Post by: DangerousDave on May 18, 2012, 10:35:56 PM
So can someone explain in layman's terms what the indoctrination interpretation means? :)
Title: Re: Mass Effect 3
Post by: Sixftunder on May 18, 2012, 10:55:26 PM
Well without having played the game, or at least watching the ending on youtube it's a little hard to explain, but I'll do my best.

Towards the end of the game, your player (Shepard) is running down a giant hill towards a beam that shoots up into the sky to connect with the citadel, which is like a super giant space station. Before you can get to the beam, a reaper plops down from space right behind the beam, and fires his laser directly at you (whether it actually hits you or not is up in the air). Regardless, you get knocked out. The Indoctrination theory begins with the notion that everything that happens after Sheppard wakes up is all in his head and thus not real. It is a manifestation of his subconscious while the reapers use insidious means to try and indoctrinate him, or essentially be a slave to their will. There is a lot of supporting evidence in the ending, or everything after Shepard wakes up.

If you have time Dave (about an hour and a half) you should watch the video I just recently posted, it does a great job of explaining it, even if you have never played the game(s). 
Title: Re: Mass Effect 3
Post by: DangerousDave on May 18, 2012, 10:56:51 PM
Haha, maybe this weekend :P That explanation was mostly what I was looking for.
Title: Re: Mass Effect 3
Post by: Postmortem on May 22, 2012, 07:48:22 PM
Actually, what you should do is play the games.
Title: Re: Mass Effect 3
Post by: DangerousDave on May 22, 2012, 08:37:23 PM
I could start on a massive playthrough, yes....

Or I could build Jurassic Park, and cross that stupid video off my college to-do list :P
Title: Re: Mass Effect 3
Post by: Postmortem on May 22, 2012, 10:33:48 PM
Build... Jurassic Park?!  :o
Title: Re: Mass Effect 3
Post by: DangerousDave on May 22, 2012, 10:52:01 PM
RollerCoaster Tycoon! You will see...
Title: Re: Mass Effect 3
Post by: Postmortem on May 23, 2012, 04:56:38 AM
I thought you meant like a scale model of the island or something. :P When I have the free time and the resources, that's what I'm going to do.
Title: Re: Mass Effect 3
Post by: DangerousDave on May 23, 2012, 12:38:47 PM
Haha, scale model made out of what? And would it be based on the movie version or would you try and keep closer to the book?
Title: Re: Mass Effect 3
Post by: Tar Alacrin on May 30, 2012, 04:16:22 PM
Wait, how many people in this thread have actually played the game?

Six and Dave haven't... Dang it! I've been avoiding this thread cause i haven't played the game, I could have contributed! ...Darn...
Title: Re: Mass Effect 3
Post by: That Gunslinger on May 30, 2012, 04:20:13 PM
Wait, how many people in this thread have actually played the game?

Six and Dave haven't... Dang it! I've been avoiding this thread cause i haven't played the game, I could have contributed! ...Darn...

It's still full of spoilers, it's just that they don't seem to be bothered about it. They haven't played any of the games either I don't think so everything is out of context for them anyway.
Title: Re: Mass Effect 3
Post by: Tar Alacrin on May 30, 2012, 04:23:06 PM
So is it just Capac, Post, and Slightly then who have played? Really? Ive only played ME2 sooo.... I was planning on getting ME3 too, but I think Ill save my money to preorder H4. I hope they still have limited editions in a few months when i get enough
Title: Re: Mass Effect 3
Post by: Sixftunder on May 30, 2012, 04:39:34 PM
Ive only played ME2 sooo.... I was planning on getting ME3 too, but I think Ill save my money to preorder H4. I hope they still have limited editions in a few months when i get enough

You should really take the time and invest by starting with ME1 and see how your choices effect 2 and to get the complete ecperience. But if you can't you should definitly pick up ME3. Fantastic game, just dont watch the last 15 minutes  :P
Title: Re: Mass Effect 3
Post by: Tar Alacrin on May 30, 2012, 04:51:57 PM
Six, have you played ME3?
Title: Re: Mass Effect 3
Post by: Sixftunder on May 30, 2012, 05:04:02 PM
Wow, sorry I completely misread your post Tar. (Previous posts deleted)

Yes, I have played ME3, and I think I'm on my fourth play through now. I think a majority of this thread is me complaining about the ending  8)

Title: Re: Mass Effect 3
Post by: Tar Alacrin on May 30, 2012, 05:07:42 PM
Aaaah, I thought from your post earlier that you hadnt; Was really surprised and confused
Title: Re: Mass Effect 3
Post by: Sixftunder on May 30, 2012, 05:10:58 PM
No, I am one of those people who has probably spent over 100 hours throughout all three games. I just recently beat ME1 and 2 again so that I could get certain options in 3, which is what I'm working on now before the new "Extended cut DLC" comes out.

Wait, how many people in this thread have actually played the game?

Six and Dave haven't... Dang it! I've been avoiding this thread cause i haven't played the game, I could have contributed! ...Darn...

It's still full of spoilers, it's just that they don't seem to be bothered about it. They haven't played any of the games either I don't think so everything is out of context for them anyway.

I hope you weren't referring to me Gun; You and I have been discussing the ending to 3 and the entire series the most of anyone in this thread....
Title: Re: Mass Effect 3
Post by: That Gunslinger on May 30, 2012, 07:13:03 PM
I hope you weren't referring to me Gun; You and I have been discussing the ending to 3 and the entire series the most of anyone in this thread....

Lol I misread it. I'll never forget our discussions of how horrible the ending made me feel. ;)
Title: Re: Mass Effect 3
Post by: DangerousDave on May 30, 2012, 09:58:39 PM
I see a pattern emerging...

(http://i.imgur.com/PINky.png)
Title: Re: Mass Effect 3
Post by: Sixftunder on May 30, 2012, 10:13:40 PM
Emerging? I'd say it's pretty much set in stone :D
Title: Re: Mass Effect 3
Post by: DangerousDave on May 30, 2012, 10:18:08 PM
Must... resist.... :)

I think I'm just going to go watch someone blow through the games on Youtube or something. Playing Fable is exhausting enough for me and I've been meaning to get back to Golden Sun and TLA, I just can't fathom starting in on three whole RPG games.
Title: Re: Mass Effect 3
Post by: That Gunslinger on May 30, 2012, 10:21:50 PM
I see a pattern emerging...

NO! How did you find this! My master plan, it's rui- uh... I mean... that's interesting...

"Without us to stop it, trolls would destroy the internet. We've created the cycle so that never happens. That's the solution."

Ah, couldn't resist.
Title: Re: Mass Effect 3
Post by: Sixftunder on May 30, 2012, 10:23:40 PM
If you do watch the videos instead of playing the games, then you'll have no right to comment on the ending, just so you know  :-X

Playing the games and investing the time and energy into it is how you make the deep emotional connections to the characters, Sheppard (which is really a representation of yourself) and the story itself.

Title: Re: Mass Effect 3
Post by: DangerousDave on May 30, 2012, 10:25:03 PM
If you do watch the videos instead of playing the games, then you'll have no right to comment on the ending, just so you know  :-X

Playing the games and investing the time and energy into it is how you make the deep emotional connections to the characters, Sheppard (which is really a representation of yourself) and the story itself.

Oh, I'm not going to, don't worry :P While I'm down with spoilers and even academic research suggests they are beneficial for enjoyment, some things are inexorably altered with prior knowledge.
Title: Re: Mass Effect 3
Post by: Sixftunder on May 30, 2012, 10:33:34 PM
Down with spoilers you say? I don't suppose you have watched the Indoctrination Theory: A Documentary video I posted, have you?
Title: Re: Mass Effect 3
Post by: DangerousDave on May 30, 2012, 11:19:40 PM
Down with spoilers you say? I don't suppose you have watched the Indoctrination Theory: A Documentary video I posted, have you?

Not yet, Six, not yet... :)
Title: Re: Mass Effect 3
Post by: Tar Alacrin on May 31, 2012, 03:27:55 PM
I see a pattern emerging...

Paint... its a good program :)

Oh and you forgot the step:
 "Podcast comes out, the forward staff has a conversation about something on the forums, and doesnt mention any of the theories or ideas from the forum or steals the theories and doesnt give them credit" :D

And:
 "Tar comes up with an awesome speculation and a perfect theory: Thread is largely ignored" :P
Title: Re: Mass Effect 3
Post by: DangerousDave on May 31, 2012, 03:35:57 PM
Hey, I try to give credit where credit's due, but usually I forget to write down proper notes before we record. It's not malevolence, it's laziness :)

And that's Photoshop, son. I was just too lazy to break out my tablet to draw four lines :)
Title: Re: Mass Effect 3
Post by: Tar Alacrin on May 31, 2012, 03:38:19 PM
Call it whatever you would like :P
Title: Re: Mass Effect 3
Post by: That Gunslinger on June 22, 2012, 11:18:10 PM
There is hope. One tiny glimmer of hope...

http://blog.bioware.com/2012/06/22/mass-effect-3-extended-cut-2/

Last chance Bioware...

And Casey Hudson can go fight a Thresher Maw.
Title: Re: Mass Effect 3
Post by: Postmortem on June 22, 2012, 11:35:41 PM
There is hope. One tiny glimmer of hope...

http://blog.bioware.com/2012/06/22/mass-effect-3-extended-cut-2/

Last chance Bioware...

And Casey Hudson can go fight a Thresher Maw.

Pretty excited to see what comes out of this.
Title: Re: Mass Effect 3
Post by: Sixftunder on June 22, 2012, 11:41:21 PM
June 26? Wow, I'm kinda surprised they didn't announce that it was going to be a late summer release. Tuesday can't come quick enough.
Title: Re: Mass Effect 3
Post by: Capac Amaru on June 24, 2012, 08:01:59 PM
Hooray! The closure we've all been begging for is almost upon us! Oh wait, we were begging for SHIT TO MAKE SENSE!
Title: Re: Mass Effect 3
Post by: That Gunslinger on June 26, 2012, 09:50:46 AM
I'm downloading it now... for better or worse.

I've had to play like 3 hours of multiplayer just to get the stupid readiness up again. I really hate that mechanic.

Now... let's actually take Earth back this time please. See you on the other side.

EDIT: OH WOW ORANGE ENDING! YEEEAAAAAAAAAH! Liara was the Illusive Man all along?! Shepard IS the Reapers?! Garrus finished his calibrations! WOOOAAAHH! (I've got to make the most of this moment to joke as much as possible in case the ending is actually good)
Title: Re: Mass Effect 3
Post by: Capac Amaru on June 26, 2012, 04:46:02 PM
I'm downloading it now... for better or worse.

I've had to play like 3 hours of multiplayer just to get the stupid readiness up again. I really hate that mechanic.

Now... let's actually take Earth back this time please. See you on the other side.

EDIT: OH WOW ORANGE ENDING! YEEEAAAAAAAAAH! Liara was the Illusive Man all along?! Shepard IS the Reapers?! Garrus finished his calibrations! WOOOAAAHH! (I've got to make the most of this moment to joke as much as possible in case the ending is actually good)

Downloading now...

Engaging patronizing compensators.
Title: Re: Mass Effect 3
Post by: That Gunslinger on June 26, 2012, 06:23:59 PM
SPOILERS OBVIOUSLY:

I finished it a while ago, but I kind of actually liked it it. It wasn't the ending I wanted, nor the one(s) that we were promised, but it's enough to leave me satisfied. The only issue is that it still included the whole 'Shep taking a breath scene at the end', so it neither confirms nor denies the Indoctrination theory, as I though it wouldn't, which basically desides whether the event s we see re genuine or not. But whatever, I'm sick of wondering about it. Every race learned to work together for a better future (except the Geth, and EDI :( ), and that is good enough for me.

Since it is still open to interpretation, (as the Indoctrination theory stills stand, and is in fact supported if you get the refusal ending, which I did by shooting the Starchild in the face, and Harbinger is displeased, much to my surprise) I have come to a few conculsions: both the control and synthesis endings are childish dreams just as they were in the original ending, and only the destroy option is the true one. It's still the only ending in which Shep does the breath thing too.

The 'true' ending is the destroy, in which sacrifices are made, and damage is done, but every species has learned to work together for a better future than any one of them could have achieved. The Krogan get their babies (AAAAWWW) and their civilisation back, the Quarians get their homeworld back, and can live better than ever before, and every other worlds rebuild. To quote another great Shepard: "If we can't live together, we're gonna die alone." It's a great message, and I prefer it to the 'Reapers and space magic fix everything derp' explanations. This certainly applies:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_fP7QrDR87M

There's loads of cool little things that Bioware added too that I noticed (other than the new cutscenes):

- New scene in which the Normandy picks up your teammates (made me cry :'().
- Pvt Marauder Shields is weakened (Bioware was just annoyed that he wanted to save us).
- New animations and sound effects in the Citadel hallway in which the beam takes you to.
- New conversation options with the Starchild (Not that you could miss these).
- New 'Refusal ending' which happens if you refuse to use the Catalyst or (as I did the first time) shoot the kid in the face.

Bioware is too far gone into the black hole that is EA, but at least they left the ME trilogy behind as a memorial of sorts to when they were actually good developers (or at least not slaves). Cheers Bioware, and RIP.

In conclusion:
People are still going to moan about it just for the sake of it, but the ending is good enough that I can say that the Mass Effect series is one of the most ambitious and emotional pieces of entertainment ever made, and I'm glad I was a part of it. I totally cried when they started rolling the motion pics stuff too, and when the Normandy took off. God damn it, I just love this series, and most importantly, the characters.
Title: Re: Mass Effect 3
Post by: Daedalius on June 26, 2012, 07:15:39 PM
New endings are surprisingly not as awful as I had feared, things actually seem tied up to some degree; at least in relation to which ending you picked rather than just an RGB lightshow.
Title: Re: Mass Effect 3
Post by: Capac Amaru on June 26, 2012, 08:15:31 PM
Just got to Earth. Why the hell did they make me do the Cerberus base over again? I didn't see anything different about it...
Title: Re: Mass Effect 3
Post by: That Gunslinger on June 26, 2012, 08:34:21 PM
Just got to Earth. Why the hell did they make me do the Cerberus base over again? I didn't see anything different about it...

Yeah nothing is different until you charge the beam lol.
Title: Re: Mass Effect 3
Post by: Capac Amaru on June 26, 2012, 08:37:20 PM
Not looking forward to the stupid 'DEFEND THE MISSILES THAT CANT HIT ANYWAY TROLOLO'
Title: Re: Mass Effect 3
Post by: Capac Amaru on June 26, 2012, 08:49:39 PM
Game crashed at the turret gun section in the camp...
Title: Re: Mass Effect 3
Post by: That Gunslinger on June 26, 2012, 09:04:00 PM
Game crashed at the turret gun section in the camp...

Keep me posted, Hackett out.
Title: Re: Mass Effect 3
Post by: Sixftunder on June 27, 2012, 12:56:58 AM
Just finished the Extended Cut DLC. Three things I wanted to disclaim before I share my thoughts:

1. I'm a dumbass; I started the download right before I took my dog to the vet and expected it to be done when I returned. Long story short, I fired up the game when I got home and completed it from the Cerberus base mission. I finished the game and saw no new scenes. It wasn't finished downloading and I wasted 2 hours for nothing. Go me.

2. I haven't read any of the new posts made today because I wanted to get my thoughts out before reading yours. I look forward to discussing it. This leads me to my last point, which is

3. SPOILERS AHEAD

Bioware (and the Mass Effect universe): Redeemed, not perfect but still much better than the original

That DLC gave us all, if not most of the answers to the questions we had from the original ending. That is exactly what the ending should have been from the beginning.

Joker leaving us when we needed him most - ordered by Admiral Hacket to make and FTL jump with *presumably* the rest of the fleet. Joker looked upset and Garrus, in my ending, told him "we have to go". Simple. That is what I imagined at first, but with no mention of that, or the shot of the Normandy rejoining Sword, it still wasn't clearly implied. A short scene that should have been in the original.

The Citadel - I felt like this scene was kind of changed from the original. The citadel, post-color orgasm, looked very much destroyed in the original which it did not in the Extended Cut. Best of all, we see it fully repaired in the future, tethered to what looked like Earth. Very cool.

The Normandy crash - this scene was definitely changed. It was no where near as damaged in the EC as it was in the original. Joker looked vary calm and collected flying away from the relay explosion, and we didn't even see the ship start to break up when the blast gets close enough. In the expanded dialogue wheel with the Catalyst, we learn that the design of the Crucible WE built was "Crude but effective" and would not damage much beyond the reapers themselves. So now we know that the Normandy can be repaired, and what do you know? We see the Normandy leaving the mystery planet. Speaking of the dialogue wheel with the Catalyst...

The F*cking Starchild - We finally get a dialogue wheel with this thing! ABSOLUTELY SHOULD HAVE BEEN THERE IN THE FIRST PLACE. We learn the catalyst is a construct that represents the Reapers as a whole. Much better than simply "I am the Catalyst". We kind of find out about the Reapers creation, I can't recall it right now, but I thought it was satisfactory. But what I found most interesting was the information on the Crucible. The Reapers were aware of the plans for the device several cycles ago, but thought it had vanished in the next cycles. I find this a little hard to believe, but okay-I'll bite. We also learn the Crucible we have built is functional, but not perfect. This lends some credence to the "The crucible gave me options" statement that was made on it's own in the original. This little piece of dialogue also should have been in the original.

This new information made me really think about making that last choice again, but I ultimately went with destroy again, hoping the indoctrination theory still might hold true. Sadly, I'm pretty sure the EC ending has dismissed that possibility. But I also choose the destroy ending to see if there would be any more on the shot of Shepard on the ground taking a breath in rubble. Alas, there was nothing and leaves that whole situation unresolved. I still don't think that scene was on the citadel because we see it rebuilt and somebody would have found him otherwise, right?

And the most simple fix they made to this ending which could have totally been done in the original? The still-frames of each species on their homeworld watching the Reapers fall all across the galaxy. We see baby Krogran running around, the Quarians on their homeworld of Rannoch. The Assari standing atop the ruble of Thesia. A simple means of delivering that all important word floating around......................Have you guessed it yet?.............................CLOSURE.

I'll stop my ramblings here, but the topic of the Catalyst's creators is still on my mind. All in all, I was pleased with this content, and I honestly believe that if this was the original ending, there would not be the outcry that there was. Did we as fans deserve this ending over the original? I say absolutely. I am actually looking forward to the future of the Mass Effect universe after this ending. That is, assuming their not going to do a prequel about the first contact war or something. (Please don't do that. Oh, your IP rights are owned by EA? :( We'll see you in the prequel).

Title: Re: Mass Effect 3
Post by: Sixftunder on June 27, 2012, 01:38:52 AM
- New 'Refusal ending' which happens if you refuse to use the Catalyst or (as I did the first time) shoot the kid in the face.

Whoa, what? Seriously? I need to see this! So how are the reapers defeated in this ending?

Title: Re: Mass Effect 3
Post by: DangerousDave on June 27, 2012, 02:20:15 AM
Well I'm glad y'all are (reasonably) happy :)
Title: Re: Mass Effect 3
Post by: Sixftunder on June 27, 2012, 02:22:23 AM
In response to my own post, there is a refusal ending, and I learned that all of the endings are actually now different, and more so than just different color explosions! Which is what Bioware orginally promised.

I heard that in the control option, you actually see the Reapers repair the Relays, and in the Refusal, the Reapers actually win. Going to watch the synthesis ending now.

All this leads me to think, how can there be a "Mass Effect 4" with 4 different endings that could lead to completely different game stories? that sounds like a programming nightmare! Kinda makes me think if they do another ME3 game it will be a prequel, as I said before.
Title: Re: Mass Effect 3
Post by: Capac Amaru on June 27, 2012, 03:41:59 AM
Ok, I'm done. I just finished the new ending. 7 times.

Reject.

Shoot kid in face.

Control.

Synthesis.

Destroy.

Destroy.

Control.


Here are my notes:

Normandy makes it down to the surface from the battle in orbit in seconds... wut?

Harbinger can hit individual soldiers on the ground, but can't hit the Normandy when its stationary? They even FACE OFF and Harbinger just IGNORES IT?

The Catalyst is a synthetic, designed to use synthetics to convert organics into synthetics to prevent synthetics from killing organics, by organics that it converted into synthetics.

Why does the Catalyst care about time?

The relays aren't blown up, just the rings get broken, nice handwave Bioware HERPADERP

Replace the Catalyst (control). Do what he wants (synthesis). Destroy him (destroy). Or tell him to get stuffed (rejection).

Synthesis ending: Your 'organic energy' will be broken down and dispersed LOL WUT THATS YOUR EXPLANATION?

Space magic is still stupid and doesn't make sense

Rejection Ending: The cycle continues, in the next cycle they access Liara's capsule and 'defeat' the reapers, presumably by selecting one of Bioware's 'preferred' choices. And Shepard becomes some kind of god to them.

The 'rejecting the options' ending is a massive fuck you from Bioware to everyone who disliked their horribly written endings.

Control ending: actually good now. The unecessary enslavement of the Geth is still a disgrace, but hopefully Sheperd can give them autonomy.

Destroy ending just black screened for most of the ending... wtf happened, now its just black and playing music in a loop instead of rolling the credits

I swear the kid in the post credits scene had adult proportions

Still no Rachni though.


I chose the Control ending, so I could have the joy of erasing that smug little brat, and become a machine god, hopefully giving the Geth back their free will.
Title: Re: Mass Effect 3
Post by: Postmortem on June 27, 2012, 06:11:26 AM
- New 'Refusal ending' which happens if you refuse to use the Catalyst or (as I did the first time) shoot the kid in the face.

Whoa, what? Seriously? I need to see this! So how are the reapers defeated in this ending?

They're not. It's basically the "I give up" option. Shepherd isn't even shown dying, it's just assumed that everyone was harvested. The point of this choice is that Shepherd (and thus humanity) is making his own choice, to die as a free individual rather than be forced to choose between three extreme options that another chose for him. The idea is that if you choose this, the Reapers harvest you and then retreat back to empty space. Then, thousands of years later, the dominant races of the next cycle find that message Liara put together with all the details about the Reapers and Shepherd and used that to defeat them in that cycle.

Cool idea for an ending, and honestly I would have preferred this one. But it was shorter than the others, wasn't quite as climactic, and didn't offer any of that closure. Because it was added at the end, this more realistic option definitely got the short hand. But eh. Whatever, they did an amazing job expanding on all three, and the synthesis ending (my favorite) was made even better by the monologue at the end. I honestly teared up when EDI spoke that line: "I am alive. And I am not alone." Pretty powerful. I say very well played Bioware. An excellent save.

The only thing I didn't like was them explicitly stating that the Catalyst was an AI built by another older race. It just seems like this whole cycle thing is being explained a bit too far back. Yes, we can assume it extends back for a LONG time. But sometimes it's better to leave those details to the imagination. I personally liked thinking that the Catalyst was a Starchild, one of those metaphysical pure-mind entities that is such a staple of science fiction. I thought it was cool to insert that into the Mass Effect universe and propose that one of these beings was responsible for the Reapers. I thought that had much more interesting implications. But then they had to flat out eliminate that interpretation by saying it was an AI. I am disappoint.

Also, Shepherd ordering his squadmates back in the middle of the charge towards the beam felt very shoehorned. I admit, I don't see how else they could have done it and for what they were trying to accomplish it worked well, but I just kind of felt like... what was the point of all this talk of "sacrifice" and saying your final goodbyes in that previous section if they're just going to be able to retreat in the middle of the hottest action they had seen? Like I said, it works... I just think it just deadened some of the importance of that battle and the dialogue you had with your squadmates before that.

But yeah, otherwise those are relatively minor complaints. I think they did an amazing job of responding to fan's feedback while also remaining true to their vision. I'll play the game years from now and not regret that the ending was changed at all.
Title: Re: Mass Effect 3
Post by: Capac Amaru on June 27, 2012, 06:28:43 AM
I hate synthesis. 'Organic energy' is not a thing. But then they seem to have given up on internally consistent science after Mass Effect 1.

The catalyst still makes no sense. It defies its own logic which is a silly thing for a machine to do. By its own admission, synthetics like itself and the Reapers are doomed to destroy organics.

You can feel the echoes of the abandoned dark matter/energy plot.

Take a break. Don't rush. Go back for the wounded and help them onto the bus. Thats how war works isn't it?

I think they ignored the complaints, cherry picked positive constructive criticism, and patted themselves on the back. I think the rejection ending was meant as a big old middle finger to everyone who complained, and it ironically (to me anyway) becomes a more compelling ending in many ways to their 'artistic' ones.

Title: Re: Mass Effect 3
Post by: That Gunslinger on June 27, 2012, 09:32:33 AM
I did like the rejection ending quite a bit due to the dialogue from Shep. You've got to respect a decision like that. I suppose it is the 'best' ending to be honest, as I presume future iterations of the Crucible would be less crude and would discriminate between Reapers and other synthetics, therefore no sacrifice would have to be made.

Another thing I noticed: The catalyst says that the 'creator' race (lets just call them that for now) were not happy with being turned into the first Reaper. It sounded to me like the Catalyst went a bit rogue and decided it knew what was best. A very cold and logical solution to the cycle. And only now with Shep creating new variables with the new Crucible iteration does the Catalyst reconsider the new possibilities. I don't blame the Catalyst, as it was just doing what it thought was right, and was just acting on the conclusions that the creators came to (that synthetics will always destroy organics). This has been proven wrong if you unite the Quarian and the Geth in the latest cycle though, and therefore the Catalyst is wrong.

Also, I still believe in the Indoctrination theory. However I now believe that the events on the 'Citadel' did take place, but only in Shepard's mind. The decision he makes there still occurs, but he is unconscious in London throughout all of this. As the Catalyst talks to Shepard about 'other forms' when describing the control ending, I think that it is entirely plausible. The breath scene in pretty strong evidence to support this.

That's what I like about this, there is actually something to interpret with these endings, rather than the wreck of an ending that was the original.
Title: Re: Mass Effect 3
Post by: Capac Amaru on June 27, 2012, 10:27:31 AM
He was a smug little prat and I enjoyed erasing him immensely.
Title: Re: Mass Effect 3
Post by: Sixftunder on June 27, 2012, 11:23:48 PM
So it seems that the next piece of DLC was leaked in the coding for the Extended Cut DLC. I would go into detail here about it here, but I dont want to spoil it for those who want to be completely surprised. I think it sounds pretty cool, and could offer even more insight into the Reapers themselves.

Here is the actual coding: (look toward the bottom to find the new DLC related stuff)

http://pastebin.com/rHzNDedX (http://pastebin.com/rHzNDedX)

If you can't guess what the DLC will be about from the link, just google ME3 Leviathan DLC. Sounds like it might be released pretty soon too! Although it will probably be the first piece of paid DLC for the game.
Title: Re: Mass Effect 3
Post by: Postmortem on June 27, 2012, 11:25:16 PM
Yeah, this one looks like it's going to explore a really interesting premise.
Title: Re: Mass Effect 3
Post by: Sixftunder on June 27, 2012, 11:27:16 PM
Yeah, from the sound of it, it is going to change our perception of how the Reapers function on a singular level, which I thought wasn't really possible.
Title: Re: Mass Effect 3
Post by: Capac Amaru on June 27, 2012, 11:45:03 PM
Yeah, from the sound of it, it is going to change our perception of how the Reapers function on a singular level, which I thought wasn't really possible.

What are you talking about? Sovereign and Harbinger were the most fleshed out characters in the series.

*cough*

All I expect from it is more bad writing and retcons.
Title: Re: Mass Effect 3
Post by: Sixftunder on June 28, 2012, 12:12:28 AM
True, but they had the same intention and were actively a part of the Reaper force. I know each Reaper has a civilization stored within it, but I figured they were all commanded by the catalyst and didn't really have the ability to "defect"
Title: Re: Mass Effect 3
Post by: Capac Amaru on June 28, 2012, 12:44:50 AM
True, but they had the same intention and were actively a part of the Reaper force. I know each Reaper has a civilization stored within it, but I figured they were all commanded by the catalyst and didn't really have the ability to "defect"

*possible future spoilers*

Its funny the path that they have taken

1. Reapers are unknowable
2. Reapers are gloating, self-obsessed villains
3. Reapers are synthetics, designed to use synthetics to convert organics into synthetics to prevent synthetics from killing organics, by organics were converted into synthetics.
4. Reapers are our friendly neighborhood space friends
5. Reapers can and have turned against their 'master'
6. ...?
7. Reapers make a string of really bad low budget comedy movies to give their friends big paychecks whilst tanking their own career

Can you figure out which one of those I may have gotten confused with Adam Sandler?
Title: Re: Mass Effect 3
Post by: Sixftunder on June 28, 2012, 12:56:25 AM
I'll go with number 6, since it's in my name  :P

I can understand the progression of our understanding of them to this point, so long as we are given the appropriate information to comprehend why and how.
Title: Re: Mass Effect 3
Post by: Capac Amaru on June 28, 2012, 01:09:14 AM
I'll go with number 6, since it's in my name  :P

I can understand the progression of our understanding of them to this point, so long as we are given the appropriate information to comprehend why and how.

The problem here is that the WRITERS don't comprehend the why and how. If they did we wouldn't have the Indoctrination Theory.
Title: Re: Mass Effect 3
Post by: Sixftunder on June 28, 2012, 01:31:55 AM
The problem here is that the WRITERS don't comprehend the why and how. If they did we wouldn't have the Indoctrination Theory.

They probably didn't at first, I'll admit that. If they had gone with the original Dark Energy theme, then the reapers wouldn't need to be anymore than tools of destruction. But now that the plot (of at least this trilogy) is organics vs. synthetics, it kinda makes sense to develop them further. I hesitate to say to develop them as a character, but at least as a more understood enemy, and eventually as an ally, then as a walmart greeter, and so on and so on.....

I really wanted the IT to be true, but the EC throws it completely out, at least in my opinion, and I'm actually okay with that. The IT was created because of a lack of information, closure, etc. on the endings part. Whatever the reason for the shit original ending, wether it was due to the overruling authority of EA to push the game out, laziness on the developers part, or a lack of cohesion on the writers part, the ending was incomplete, and since as fans we didn't think we were going to get a better answer to our questions, we came up with the best piece of fan fiction (again, my opinion) with what seemed like an overwhelming amount of evidence. The EC fills in most of the big plot holes and questions we had, and even made the endings (yes, now actual distinctly different endings) much more enjoyable. The EC made the original endings work and in a satisfying way for me.

For instance, like I said in my initial thoughts after playing it, I always chose the destroy options on my playthroughs when I heard about the IT because I believed in it that much; the destroy option seemed like the only option. However, the very first time I beat the game (and went into the fetal position in the shower with a box of cookies shortly thereafter) I chose the control option, and that was after a long internal debate.  It mainly rode on the blue coloring and how I do everything Paragon. After seeing the extended control sequence, it has become my favorite. I know everyone will have their own favorite ending, but that's the great thing about it; the endings were fixed and I could actually choose which ending I liked best based on the outcome rather than based on a theory.



Title: Re: Mass Effect 3
Post by: Capac Amaru on June 28, 2012, 01:41:49 AM
Whats funny is the IT was the best explanation for a bunch of BS that happens during the games. With it discounted, so much STILL doesn't make sense.

Child that survives being inside exploding buildings, that no one but Shepard can see, who shows up in recurring dreams and ends up just happening to look like Spacederp Catalystpants?

Is this some kind of survivors guilt? BECAUSE MY SHEP HAD HIS FAMILY AND FRIENDS MURDERED BY SLAVERS IN FRONT OF HIM WHEN HE WAS SIXTEEN AND WENT ON TO BE THE BUTCHER OF TORFAN.
Title: Re: Mass Effect 3
Post by: Sixftunder on June 28, 2012, 02:04:54 AM
I know what you mean. Plus, we never learn about the whole last breath thing or anderson getting to the citadel first; they are still the same. The EC is no where near perfect, but I'm glad it was released because it left the universe in a much better place than the original ending.

According to Bioware, when the game was first release, some of the development team sent tweets stating things like "if you knew what we had in store for ME3, you would hold on to your copy forever". I really do think they had additional DLC planned, and it seems like we may be getting the first true campaign gameplay DLC sooner rather than later. I'm looking forward to Leviathan and see how this plays into the game. Who knows, maybe that will support the IT.
Title: Re: Mass Effect 3
Post by: That Gunslinger on June 28, 2012, 08:49:30 AM
Six are you now a non-believer!? Shame on you. The IT still completely holds ups in my opinion. But I suppose that's the good thing about this now, that people can believe what they want. Destroy option is definitely my favourite though I liked all of the endings. I still have a lot of negativity associated with the game though, so hopefully if I do a trilogy playthrough in a few months I can enjoy it knowing that the ending is not a big 'FU' from Bioware anymore. Then I'll admit that it is my favourite game trilogy ever.
Title: Re: Mass Effect 3
Post by: Sixftunder on June 28, 2012, 10:24:35 AM
The more I think about it, I do think that it is still plausible, but I just don't feel the way I used to about it. It just seems like grasping at straws at this point. I don't understand why Bioware would spend all of this time, money and effort to make additional epilogue scenes that are essentially not real. What I mean is, why spend the time to flesh out the control and synthesis endings (the indoctrinated endings) when they don't need to be?

Shun me if you want, I still love the IT and think it is the best piece of fan fiction to date for a video game. It still very well could hold up, maybe as the last piece of DLC for the game. I would rather be happy with what I have then have expectations or wants that may never be satisfied.
Title: Re: Mass Effect 3
Post by: That Gunslinger on June 28, 2012, 12:31:50 PM
I would rather be happy with what I have then have expectations or wants that may never be satisfied.

Amen to that. We all got something different from the trilogy, and that was the point of them from the start.

I think that puts this chapter to bed. No more references... even I can't mock what is now a masterpiece in my mind... well maybe once in a while.


Title: Re: Mass Effect 3
Post by: Capac Amaru on June 29, 2012, 01:31:46 AM
I would rather be happy with what I have then have expectations or wants that may never be satisfied.

Amen to that. We all got something different from the trilogy, and that was the point of them from the start.

I think that puts this chapter to bed. No more references... even I can't mock what is now a masterpiece in my mind... well maybe once in a while.

Trolololol
Title: Re: Mass Effect 3
Post by: DangerousDave on June 29, 2012, 02:27:01 AM
I would rather be happy with what I have then have expectations or wants that may never be satisfied.

Amen to that. We all got something different from the trilogy, and that was the point of them from the start.

I think that puts this chapter to bed. No more references... even I can't mock what is now a masterpiece in my mind... well maybe once in a while.

Trolololol

That deserves an internet video! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KaqC5FnvAEc
Title: Re: Mass Effect 3
Post by: Sixftunder on July 06, 2012, 03:15:53 AM
Seeing as I have successfully alienated myself from the rest of the ME fans in the FUD community by admitting I like the EC ending (and apparently by admitting that I enjoyed the game up until the ending?), I would like to present this piece of fan work to those of you still unsatisfied with the EC ending as an olive branch of sorts:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kyv6ouzsDBo&feature=g-all-u (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kyv6ouzsDBo&feature=g-all-u)

I believe I have discussed some other the things the narrator, Archengeia, has brought up in his previous videos with at least one of you before, but if you haven't heard of him before, you should definitely check out some of his other videos.

Anyway, I hope you enjoy. I found that closing my eyes and imagining the scenes that were being described was better than just looking at most of the still images in the video. The images we're just supplemental and not required to understand this alternate fan ending.
Title: Re: Mass Effect 3
Post by: That Gunslinger on July 06, 2012, 07:35:41 AM
Seeing as I have successfully alienated myself from the rest of the ME fans in the FUD community by admitting I like the EC ending (and apparently by admitting that I enjoyed the game up until the ending?)

Eh? That's always been my opinion. I thought the game was a masterpiece excluding the original ending, and I loved the EC ending. Therefore the game is the nearest to perfect as art can get in my opinion. Maybe not my favourite games, but definitely the best series I have ever played, and certainly the most emotional. Halo is still probably my favourite as a game, because it's just more fun to play, but Mass Effect is something beyond just having fun, it's a living, breathing universe that makes you fell a part of it. it's beyond mere immersion, because you genuinely are making an impact, and what you do does matter. That's why Mass Effect is special.

But anyway I didn't really like that video in all honesty. For one, there is no choice involved at all, which is the biggest theme in the trilogy. Whether you liked the EC ending or not, you can't deny that it gives you four very different choices, whereas this does not, and is therefore even worse than the original ending. However there's still some cool lines and imagery in there that I wished had been in the game, like seeing armies of Krogan and Geth charging on Earth, and seeing a Reaper bleed and everyone going silent would have been a beautiful moment.

Another thing, it kind of seems ridiculous that the Crucible is another lie used by the Reapers to waste resources, and due to this it requires a lot of protection and increases the likelihood of there being a large, combined fleet in any cycle, which is shown to be enough to defeat the Reapers alone. It seems unlikely that this hasn't happened before, and therefore I don't get why the Reapers would still be alive after presumably hundreds of thousands of cycles of using this trick.

It also doesn't show any of the impacts that your choices made, which the EC ending does to a degree, if not as much as I would have liked. Therefore it still has one of the major flaws that came with the original ending.

And I understand that the guy wanted to have that 'working together and defeating the Reapers conventionally' ending that gets thrown about. But people don't seem to realise that the plans for the Crucible were passed down and improved upon through each cycle. Each cycle knew that the Reapers were just too powerful to defeat, and so sacrificed themselves so that the next would have a chance. The galaxy was working together this whole time on a grand scale, if not within each cycle. That's why it isn't 'space magic' (or at least the destroy ending isn't), because it took trillions of lives to create. It's the pinnacle of organic ingenuity, and the Reapers underestimated them. It wasn't the deus ex machina that people make it out to be (not in terms of the entire ME universe anyway).

It was just unlucky (or lucky I suppose) that the Crucible was at the stage it was in Shepard's cycle, as it was just refined enough to destroy the Reapers, but all of synthetic life too. If the game had been set in the next cycle, then perhaps there would be no synthetic casualties at all apart from the Reapers. But I felt that more lives would be saved if I used it now, rather than just waiting to see if the next cycle could pull it off (well I also believed that the other endings were IT too lol, and still do).

99% of the time I don't like fan-fiction as it's always idealistic, and has no real personal loss involved in it. That's not the fan's fault, as they want to see the characters they love survive and be happy, but more often than not, they fail to meet that balance. It's easy to write a story, but it's hard to write a good story. Bioware wasn't afraid to include the potential for wiping out like 20 characters at once in the ME2 suicide mission, and they make those tough decisions, and that's why they are the ones writing it.
Title: Re: Mass Effect 3
Post by: Capac Amaru on July 06, 2012, 11:00:03 AM
I would have rammed the Crucible into the Citadel at FTL speed.
Title: Re: Mass Effect 3
Post by: Sixftunder on July 06, 2012, 03:26:51 PM
I guess I was under the wrong impression. I guess I am not as hated as I thought I was  :D

But I liked that ending for one reason: it was simple. Yes, it had no choices, but it also had no Starbrat or it's ass backwards logic. I could take that trade off.

I found that the idea of the Crucible being meaningless actually worked well as a climax; you spent all this time uniting the galaxy to create this thing and then you find out it does nothing. You feel like you have failed, and that you will lose the coming battle  but regardless, you and the rest of the galaxy fight to the death, and expect to die. And guess what? You actually win. That would have been the most emotional scene for me I think. To find out that you did all of that for nothing (hatred, anger, confusion). You know you and everyone else will die (fear - despair). You will go down fighting anyway, with the support of your friends and the rest of the galaxy united as one (proud). And even though you expect to die, you win (happy, elated, etc.). You have essentially just went through most of the human emotions in one final battle.



Title: Re: Mass Effect 3
Post by: Capac Amaru on July 07, 2012, 05:08:35 AM
The Crucible was a massive contrivance/plot hole/macguffin that was made central to the plot without the required investment.

No one is hated here. These forums are all about sharing opinions.
Title: Re: Mass Effect 3
Post by: DangerousDave on July 07, 2012, 01:59:02 PM
*Looks down a hit list* Wait, what?

:P

Macguffins are never really investments, though--that's why they're macguffins. You could replace the crucible with some mechanism that leads to a big pile of space herb and the story's still the same. Okay, bad example, but you catch my drift--the Maltese Falcon could have been a painting, or a pile of money, or bearer bonds, or a diamond; it just needed to be a desirable object. You never needed to even see it to understand why people were trying to grab it.
Title: Re: Mass Effect 3
Post by: Capac Amaru on July 07, 2012, 09:33:45 PM
It NEEDED investment though.

Macguffins can be successful. Pulp Fiction is a good example. What's in the case doesn't matter, its about the interactions of the characters around it.

But our understanding of those actions is pinned to our expectations of the contents of the case. Our wondering if its money, or drugs, or diamonds etc informs our understanding of the characters motivations.

'Hackett keeps saying its our only hope but he doesn't know why' doesn't inform us about anything other than Hackett being a gullible fool who should have died at Arcturus.
Title: Re: Mass Effect 3
Post by: Sixftunder on July 14, 2012, 12:17:52 AM
So I was at Gamestop today to pick up a copy of Portal 2 (mind you I had to drive to the next city over to get it because it's "So rare") and I had an interesting conversation with one of the clerks.

I asked him if the Leviathan DLC had been officially announced yet; he said no. He then told me that apparently Bioware had planned there to be 9 separate pieces of single player DLC. He also said that there was going to be some DLC after the ending depending on if you were Paragon or Renegade. I gave him a blank stare, cause that just didn't seem possible. I asked him how that would work with 3 completely different states of the universe depending on your choice because that just seemed like a programing nightmare. I forget how he justified that, but he said he thinks its not going to happen like that anymore because of all of the fuss over the original ending. Another thing he mentioned was that on the final charge to the conduit, we would actual have all of the species we united battling with us and that it would have actually been a fight instead of a charge, if the game wasn't rushed.

Far-fetched?. Maybe. Will we ever know if this is what Bioware originally intended if they don't do this now? Probably not. It was still interesting to hear. I doubt EA paid off every Gamestop employee to make the game sound great to consumers like they did with the major game reviewers (not proven, but come on; we all know it's true). I would have asked him more if I wasn't holding up the line.

I do remember a tweet from a Bioware employee saying something along the lines of "If you knew what we had planned for ME3, you would want to hold on to it forever". Maybe there is a little truth in the spiel above, but who knows. If this was originally their plan, the game would have been so much better if EA didn't rush them. I would have gladly waited another year for that game knowing what we have now.
Title: Re: Mass Effect 3
Post by: Postmortem on July 14, 2012, 12:20:00 AM
I know a guy who knows a guy. I could potentially have this confirmed or denied. Potentially.
Title: Re: Mass Effect 3
Post by: Sixftunder on July 14, 2012, 12:23:28 AM
I know a guy who knows a guy. I could potentially have this confirmed or denied. Potentially.

Yeah Yeah I know. It's not like I fully believe it but I just wanted to share it with the ME3 fans.
Title: Re: Mass Effect 3
Post by: Capac Amaru on July 14, 2012, 12:27:01 AM
I know a guy who knows a guy. I could potentially have this confirmed or denied. Potentially.

Yeah Yeah I know. It's not like I fully believe it but I just wanted to share it with the ME3 fans.

ME3... fan?

Repeat that in english please, I don't understand.
Title: Re: Mass Effect 3
Post by: Sixftunder on July 14, 2012, 12:38:39 AM
I know a guy who knows a guy. I could potentially have this confirmed or denied. Potentially.

Yeah Yeah I know. It's not like I fully believe it but I just wanted to share it with the ME3 fans.

ME3... fan?

Repeat that in english please, I don't understand.


I hate you guys  >:(

So the whole series is dead for you from the ending (I can understand if you say yes, I just don't feel that way)? My apologies if you already stated this

Title: Re: Mass Effect 3
Post by: Capac Amaru on July 14, 2012, 01:28:20 AM
I was willing to tolerate a lot.

The Mass Effect 2 and Mass Effect 3 provided a framework through which everything that meant something to me in the ENTIRE SERIES was negated.

I watched everything I enjoyed in the series get stripped away, one feature at a time. Major plot points and characters ignored, minor plot points and characters elevated to ridiculous levels (Cerberus).

One smarmy little git of an AI telling me what to do, when his very existence negates the ENTIRE PLOT of the first game, and every single thing he says is pure nonsense.

The Matrix sequels, and the Star wars prequels were pretty bad, but they didn't INVALIDATE their predecessors.

Although both George Lucas and Bioware are equally detestable in their 'the audience is wrong' attitudes.


I feel insulted by Bioware and Mass Effect. I feel my intelligence is insulted. My emotional investment is disregarded. All I am to them is another chump who they've tricked money out of.

I recognize that there is some talent there. There is some great writing, some great art, etc. But by shoveling offal down our throats and not only telling us to like it, but telling us our opinions aren't as important as their 'art', they negate everything that is good.


Its also a good outlet to pour all my other frustrations at the world into...
Title: Re: Mass Effect 3
Post by: Capac Amaru on July 14, 2012, 01:31:25 AM
I should just not post in this thread anymore...

I hope everyone understands when I go off about ME I am in no way intending to disrespect anyone else's opinions opinions.
Title: Re: Mass Effect 3
Post by: Postmortem on July 14, 2012, 02:09:30 AM
There is no Mass Effect 1, 2, or 3. Just Mass Effect, a collective experience which has trumped so many other experiences I've had through gaming, and which has definitely hit the emotional high point that I've been waiting for for a long time.

Mass Effect is awesome, one of the best experiences I've had gaming, and it always will be.

Haters gonna hate. Just want you to know there aren't only people who dislike ME here. I'm a huge supporter of the games and the universe. The extended ending only enhanced, it did not fix something that was inherently broken.
Title: Re: Mass Effect 3
Post by: Tar Alacrin on July 14, 2012, 02:57:22 AM
No one is hated here. These forums are all about sharing opinions.
Now you send out the memo?
Title: Re: Mass Effect 3
Post by: Capac Amaru on July 14, 2012, 03:09:39 AM
I think maybe in 5 or 10 years I'll be able to play Mass Effect again, go exploring in my Mako, defeat Saren again, and pretend that's the real ending.

The Reapers don't show up in Shepard's lifetime.

The crew spends the rest of their lives in politics, trying to prepare the galaxy for the eventual conflict.
Title: Re: Mass Effect 3
Post by: Sixftunder on August 13, 2012, 10:40:38 PM
So.... I'll ask the difficult question....

Is anyone interested in playing the officially announced Leviathan DLC? Notice I said play, not purchase.....which you would have to do in order to play it, but you get my point. Or is ME still dead for everyone?

I really want to play it, and hear if the Starbrat can come up with any more plot holes when we ask him about the Leviathan, which it is confirmed that there will be additional dialogue with him concerning the Leviathan. But I also don't want to pay for it; I want EAware to see that they have done wrong, and if they do the sales they want, then they will probably view themselves as redeemed. So the other alternative is to watch a play-though on YouTube, but I'm so torn because I really want to experience it for myself.

What are your thoughts, if you haven't completely cast this thread aside.
Title: Re: Mass Effect 3
Post by: Postmortem on August 13, 2012, 10:57:24 PM
I'm buying it.
Title: Re: Mass Effect 3
Post by: Tar Alacrin on August 14, 2012, 03:11:00 AM
I cast this thread aside ages ago :P
  But How could you watch a play through  on youtube of Mass effect? cause a playthrough only shows ONE possibility...
Title: Re: Mass Effect 3
Post by: Sixftunder on August 14, 2012, 03:19:30 AM
I cast this thread aside ages ago :P
  But How could you watch a play through  on youtube of Mass effect? cause a playthrough only shows ONE possibility...

You can still get the gist of what is going on through a playthrough. Even though you have different dialogue options at times, you still essentially get the same response, albeit a different tone. And the "Interrogation" side of the dialogue wheel (left side) is always the same in every playthrough. From what we understand at this point, there is only one main decision that we know of; either recruit this Levitation as a war asset, or refuse/destroy it. Both of those options can easily be edited into a single video.

Either way, the playthrough should show the cutscene of what exactly the Leviathan is, and the "interrogation" questions, which is what I am most interested in.
Title: Re: Mass Effect 3
Post by: Capac Amaru on August 14, 2012, 10:01:42 AM
Not interested. I kind of want to see what effect it has, but I refuse to buy it. I swear a blood oath that I will never play this DLC unless I get it for free.

Its just like Javik: what's something fans have wanted for years that we can charge them for?

The only real change I can see happening is Shepard finding out more about pratchildrobotspaceghost's nonsense before he actually talks to the little SOB.
Title: Re: Mass Effect 3
Post by: That Gunslinger on August 14, 2012, 12:10:31 PM
Yeah I'm not paying a single pound more for DLC that isn't a genuine expansion pack. I might buy it when all of the story DLC is out in like a years time when I plan to play through the trilogy again, but not before. I really want to be excited for this but... meh.

Oh and I'm not buying Dragon Age 3 Bioware. >:(   There's only one game in that series in my mind.
Title: Re: Mass Effect 3
Post by: Tar Alacrin on August 14, 2012, 02:32:05 PM
Lol, you guys are acting all tough now, I give you less than a month after it comes out before you cave
Title: Re: Mass Effect 3
Post by: Capac Amaru on August 14, 2012, 02:54:31 PM
Lol, you guys are acting all tough now, I give you less than a month after it comes out before you cave

You underestimate my resolve Tar. Unless its free, it doesn't exist as far as I'm concerned.
Title: Re: Mass Effect 3
Post by: Tar Alacrin on August 14, 2012, 06:21:03 PM
Mass Effect has great power over you
Title: Re: Mass Effect 3
Post by: Sixftunder on August 14, 2012, 06:29:38 PM
Pay Tar no mind, he is a registered hater  :P
 
He's just trying to troll us for going off topic with mass effect in other threads  ;D
Title: Re: Mass Effect 3
Post by: Capac Amaru on August 14, 2012, 09:23:48 PM
Other debacles that are covered by NDA's are currently superseding any residual Mass Effect symptoms.
Title: Re: Mass Effect 3
Post by: Tar Alacrin on August 14, 2012, 10:12:35 PM
Other debacles that are covered by NDA's are currently superseding any residual Mass Effect symptoms.
Thats not what your posts on other threads say ;D
Title: Re: Mass Effect 3
Post by: Capac Amaru on August 14, 2012, 10:26:57 PM
Other debacles that are covered by NDA's are currently superseding any residual Mass Effect symptoms.
Thats not what your posts on other threads say ;D

The NDA debacle is only a few hours old.
Title: Re: Mass Effect 3
Post by: Sixftunder on August 15, 2012, 05:39:11 PM
Well Issac, I guess it's just me and you then. It was just announced today that it will be released on august 28.

And what is NDA?
Title: Re: Mass Effect 3
Post by: Postmortem on August 15, 2012, 06:30:10 PM
Damn. I'm gonna be away from my Xbox for about a 1 month stretch around that time. :/
Title: Re: Mass Effect 3
Post by: Tar Alacrin on August 15, 2012, 07:16:33 PM
Non Disclosure Agreement
But i don't know what it is he is refering to though
Title: Re: Mass Effect 3
Post by: Capac Amaru on August 15, 2012, 10:04:19 PM
DUST 514.
Title: Re: Mass Effect 3
Post by: Sixftunder on August 17, 2012, 05:01:01 PM
Awesome song with Sovereign voice over and amazing visuals, check it out!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WJWTx1v1adI&feature=BFa&list=UUoqpgmZI3o97-ZnD48NZeMg (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WJWTx1v1adI&feature=BFa&list=UUoqpgmZI3o97-ZnD48NZeMg)

And if you like that, you should check out the rest of this channel's Mass Effect mixes
Title: Re: Mass Effect 3
Post by: Tar Alacrin on August 17, 2012, 06:31:19 PM
haha, and if you like those remixes: here is a link to the itunes fanboy page ;D
Title: Re: The FUD Cycle is complete 3
Post by: Sixftunder on September 06, 2012, 12:52:27 AM
Well, I wanted to wait for Issac to post his thoughts first on Leviathan to see what he had to say about it, but after having a considerable amount of time to reflect on it, I think I am ready to share my thoughts.

Obvious spoilers ahead, not that I think Capac or Gun will care since I'm pretty sure they won't be playing it, so I guess the spoiler warning is only for Issac and any other new members that haven't expressed their interest in the series on here.

Oh, and thanks for changing the title of the thread Dave, you Jerk :P I knew you told me you were going to censor any foul language in this thread for this DLC, but I didn't know that included censoring the title haha. But just to see you kept good on your end...  Shit Fuck. (EDIT: either your filter doesn't work, or you were just blowing smoke) (2nd Edit: perhaps I misheard you, I noticed that every time I typed ending, it was changed to Multicolored explosion. Nicely done sir) Anyway...

I think that Leviathan was a good piece of DLC, when judged solely on its own and not how it ties into the rest of the plot. It added some new gameplay elements that haven't been seen before in the series (the investigation in Bryson's lab to narrow the search on the galaxy map to find where to go to next - very LA Noireish) and a few new weapons to play with that were previously only available in multiplayer. However, once again I think Bioware over hyped something that I was kind of looking forward to. They promised a vast underwater section of gameplay, which I though was great, until I realized how abruptly short it was. Through one of their press conferences or videos, we were told we would be able to explore a vast underwater section. In reality, it was a point A to point B path that took all of a minute or two  >:(

And then there is the scene with the Leviathan. Overall, I thought this scene was enjoyable as it took the time to explain some things that Star Jar Binks thought there "wasn't enough time to explain". As I'm sure many of you could have speculated, the Leviathans (no other name given for them other than the self-given title of Apex race) were the race of organic beings that the all Reapers are modeled after (retcon). This race controlled all other "lesser" species, but apparently let them do as they please as long as they worked for and worshiped the Leviathans. Because of the lesser species kind-of-sort-of free will, they created synthetics and guess what those synthetics did; extinguished their creators.

When the Leviathans took notice of this, they created an Intelligence, the Starbrat, with the sole mandate to preserve life at any cost. Shepard does ask why it created a synthetic to take care of the Leviathans problem after the Leviathans saw what happened to the lesser species when they created synthetics, to which it replied "we were not worried of the concerns of the lesser races". I find that a little hard to believe, but okay, whatever, I'll have bigger fish to fry in a minute. From there, the Starchild basically came up with it's solution and turned on the Leviathans to create the first Reaper; Harbinger. Apparently, each cycle ends with the birth of a reaper and apparently, a few Leviathans were able to hide and have been watching each cycle through certain artifacts ever since - talk about a long life cycle.

Although the Leviathan wants to keep you in it's domain while the cycle continues, Shepard convinces it to let him go and help defeat the Reapers in this cycle. However, as expected, there is no extra scene in the final battle showing the Leviathans clobber Reapers at Earth, and there is like one line of extra dialogue with the Starchild at the end, which is so insignificant it isn't worth reciting.

All in all, not a bad piece of DLC when sperated from the rest of the story. Not as good as previous DLC's such as LotSB or Arrival, in my opinion, but still good.

Now lets get to how it ties into the plot as a whole. Rant time; initiated.

This DLC did quite a bit of retconning to the series as a whole, much as the ending did. If you notice at the end of ME2, when all of the Reapers are shown coming to the galaxy from dark space, you can notice that they all have a basic design, but all have slight variations. I believe this is also mentioned somewhere in ME2, but I can't recall where at the moment.

(http://wccftech.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/03/Untitled_14.jpg)

Now we learn they are ALL modeled after Harbinger, and thus why they all look the same in Multicolored Explosion. I know that there are destroyers and AA Reapers and the "Sovereign/Harbinger" class Reapers, but in Multicolored Explosion all of those classes are identical.

This also begs the question, what was the point of making a Human Reaper with such a radical design change from the rest of the Reapers? I believe this had something to do with the original Dark Energy theme that was thrown out, and now it seems like that whole sub-plot, which is basically then entire underlying plot of ME2, is irrelevant. Fantastic.

If you had a chance to look at the leaked script that came out the November before Multicolored Explosion's release, there was no indication of a Leviathan type mission and I personally don't believe there were plans for it in a DLC because it wasn't needed. Also, the rumored Omega DLC was an actual part of the original game, fancy that. But anyway, this DLC was an attempt to further explain the shit ending we were given, which might have worked IF IT WAS A PART OF THE ORIGINAL GAME. That way, we would have at least know of the Starchild prior to it being shoved in our face in the last 15 minutes and simultaneously created less of a backlash from fans, at least in my opinion. Once again, if EA wanted them to re-write the game because of the leak, they should have allowed them to push back the release to make this new plot work. But apparently increased operating expenses are more favorable to EA than achieving the Most Hated Company in America award (aka the Golden Poo) and losing a large portion of Bioware's fanbase.

I'll stop my rant here. I could continue to go on, but I will spare you all from that, for now. I'll end on a somewhat related topic; If there is an Omega DLC released, I definitely won't buy it, mainly because it really won't add anything for me. I don't care about retaking Omega, and I only purchased Leviathan because I actually was interested in learning more about the Reapers, even though our goal was, as Vigil stated in ME1 "to defeat the Reapers, not to understand them"

Six out.
Title: Re: The FUD Cycle is complete 3
Post by: Postmortem on September 06, 2012, 01:12:49 AM
I will be able to play Xbox again in two weeks. I'll read and post my thoughts then.
Title: Re: The FUD Cycle is complete 3
Post by: Tar Alacrin on September 06, 2012, 03:40:42 AM
Quote
Oh, and thanks for changing the title of the thread Dave, you Jerk I knew you told me you were going to censor any foul language in this thread for this DLC, but I didn't know that included censoring the title haha. But just to see you kept good on your end...  Shit Fuck. (EDIT: either your filter doesn't work, or you were just blowing smoke) (2nd Edit: perhaps I misheard you, I noticed that every time I typed ending, it was changed to Multicolored explosion. Nicely done sir) Anyway...

Dave, I have never loved you more than after reading this post :D :D :D
Title: Re: The FUD Cycle is complete 3
Post by: Capac Amaru on September 06, 2012, 05:38:09 PM

Obvious spoilers ahead, not that I think Capac or Gun will care since I'm pretty sure they won't be playing it, so I guess the spoiler warning is only for Issac and any other new members that haven't expressed their interest in the series on here.

1 However, once again I think Bioware over hyped something that I was kind of looking forward to.

2 This race controlled all other "lesser" species, but apparently let them do as they please as long as they worked for and worshiped the Leviathans. Because of the lesser species kind-of-sort-of free will, they created synthetics and guess what those synthetics did; extinguished their creators.

3 When the Leviathans took notice of this, they created an Intelligence, the Starbrat, with the sole mandate to preserve life at any cost. Shepard does ask why it created a synthetic to take care of the Leviathans problem after the Leviathans saw what happened to the lesser species when they created synthetics, to which it replied "we were not worried of the concerns of the lesser races".

4 The first Reaper; Harbinger.

5 A few Leviathans were able to hide and have been watching each cycle through certain artifacts ever since - talk about a long life cycle.

6 This also begs the question, what was the point of making a Human Reaper with such a radical design change from the rest of the Reapers?

7 As Vigil stated in ME1 "to defeat the Reapers, not to understand them"


Yeah, don't care about spoilers. Haven't bought it, haven't played it, don't plan to.

1 No surprises there.

2 Somebody has been smoking pot and watching the Matrix films, and regurgitating it as 'writing'. Why would an egocentric species that demands worship care about life other than themselves? They don't sound as if they were concerned about the machines killing them, so why would they care? It sounds like the Goa'uld from Stargate, but they support greenpeace. wut.

3 Concerns of lesser races. So little sense. If the lesser races wiped themselves out by creating machines, then they didn't have any concerns. Were the 'lesser races' 'concerned' that the smug little git would turn on the leviathans? Did the 'lesser races' sign petitions saying 'don't make stupid machine children?'. Or is all the nonsense about everything being unfathomable just because the suicidal hubris of these space morons is beyond human comprehension?

4 Why is everything since ME2 about Harbinger? Someone at Bioware has a huge hard on for their own 'brilliant' 'work' in writing this 'character'.

5 So the Leviathans are hiding... but they think its all acceptable, hence not DOING anything about it?

6 ME1 and ME2 are both irrelevant before the 'art' that is Multicolored Explosion TROLOLOLO. (ME2 was already irrelevant to boot)

7 Vigil was right, for the wrong reasons. He thought it was more important to fight the reapers than to find out why they did what they did, but really there is no point trying to understand the reapers because their reason for existing is garbage, their behavior is nonsensical, and their abilities are magical. There is nothing about them to understand because NOTHING about them makes any sense.
Title: Re: The FUD Cycle is complete 3
Post by: Sixftunder on September 06, 2012, 10:24:05 PM
Well apparently the Leviathans were so into themselves that they needed others to know how great they were "Tribute does not flow from a dead race" - exact quote.

And yes, hiding and watching is exctaly what they are doing. Sounds like an apex race to me.

One other thing that bugs me about his story is that the first reaper, Harbinger, was created from the first harvest of their species i.e. there were no Reapers to fight the Leviathans during the first harvest, so how in the hell did they lose? The "lesser thralls" controlled by the Catalyst were able to take down the Apex race that was fully capable of controlling them? Something doesn't add up.

Speaking of multicolored explosions, I have to share this and hopefully lighten the atmosphere a little at Bioware's expense. If anyone ever deserved a "Got 'em!" award, it's this guy right here:

(http://i.imgur.com/Ssvfd.jpg)
Title: Re: Mass Effect 3
Post by: Sixftunder on September 19, 2012, 12:41:50 AM
Surprise! Omega DLC has been announced. I never saw that coming.

http://blog.bioware.com/2012/09/18/from-aaryn-flynn/

Not only that, Casey Hudson plans on making another Mass Effect game. I bet it will be a prequel about the First Contact War and you play as Anderson....and Hudson will still find a way to incorporate a horribly written story into it.

There is also talk about a completely new IP with "all new gaming technology". Apparently, no one as told them that motion capture has been out for quite some time now  :P

Gun, Capac, Post: any of you have any interest in this new IP?
Title: Re: Mass Effect 3
Post by: Tar Alacrin on September 19, 2012, 03:09:59 AM
There is also talk about a completely new IP with "all new gaming technology". Apparently, no one as told them that motion capture has been out for quite some time now  :P

Gun, Capac, Post, TAR *geez* : any of you have any interest in this new IP?
Yes, yes I am interested, as much as you fan boys Poo-Poo all over ME3, Bioware still makes the good games usually...
Title: Re: Mass Effect 3
Post by: Sixftunder on September 19, 2012, 04:03:36 PM
Well, there was a reason I asked those specific people in this specific thread, instead of the community at large in a "new Bioware IP" thread. But your opinion has been noted regardless.

Bioware still makes the good games usually...

Have you played the last three games they have developed?
Title: Re: Mass Effect 3
Post by: Tar Alacrin on September 19, 2012, 04:54:53 PM
Mass effect 2 is good... What are the last three games theyve made? ME3, Tor, and Dragon Age...  I didnt play Tor, but from what Ive heard, the game wasnt actually BAD, it was just pretty much the same game as Wow, and so people got bored... And from what I've heard, ME3 was a good game up until the ending.
Title: Re: Mass Effect 3
Post by: DangerousDave on September 20, 2012, 03:09:25 AM
Well, there was a reason I asked those specific people in this specific thread, instead of the community at large in a "new Bioware IP" thread.

Yeah, because you hurt feelings. *sniff*

Although I really can't add anything to this discussion anyhow since I haven't played any of the games...

...

foreveralone.jpg

What exactly remains to be wrapped up with this DLC, however? I don't quite understand this "ending, and then more ending" thing.
Title: Re: Mass Effect 3
Post by: Sixftunder on September 20, 2012, 10:19:51 AM
Well, there was a reason I asked those specific people in this specific thread, instead of the community at large in a "new Bioware IP" thread.

Yeah, because you hurt feelings. *sniff*

Although I really can't add anything to this discussion anyhow since I haven't played any of the games...

...

foreveralone.jpg

What exactly remains to be wrapped up with this DLC, however? I don't quite understand this "ending, and then more ending" thing.

I think butthurt is a more appropriate term :p

And yet you all make fun of us for a game that I GUARANTEE you would have an emotional investment in if you spent the tens or hundreds of hours playing the franchise.

As for the DLC you mentioned Dave, you mean the already released DLC or yet to be released Omega? As far as the ending, then more ending thing, if I am understanding you intent, the already released DLC didn't actually add anything to the ending, it was just at attempt to foreshadow it and make it make more sense after the fact. That in my book means you shipped an incomplete game.

Edit; fyi the already released DLC and yet to be released DLC take place before the multicolored explosion.

Although, the released DLC did add a dialogue option at the end which contained information we already knew pre-release, and you could get the infamous leader of the Reapers to repeat himself, which I found amusing.
Title: Re: Mass Effect 3
Post by: Tar Alacrin on September 20, 2012, 03:05:52 PM
Well, there was a reason I asked those specific people in this specific thread, instead of the community at large in a "new Bioware IP" thread.
What exactly remains to be wrapped up with this DLC, however? I don't quite understand this "ending, and then more ending" thing.

Its because if they were to stop complaining; *whispers* they might actually enjoy something... ;)
Title: Re: The FUD Cycle is complete 3
Post by: Sixftunder on September 20, 2012, 05:18:30 PM
Its because if they were to stop complaining; *whispers* they might actually enjoy something... ;)

I think that Leviathan was a good piece of DLC, when judged solely on its own and not how it ties into the rest of the plot.
Title: Re: Mass Effect 3
Post by: Tar Alacrin on September 20, 2012, 08:06:36 PM
Its because if they were to stop complaining; *whispers* they might actually enjoy something... ;)

I think that Leviathan was a good piece of DLC, when judged solely on its own and not how it ties into the rest of the plot.
Haha, I think that would be considered Not complaining, when judged solely on its own and not how it ties into the rest of what youve said.
Title: Re: Mass Effect 3
Post by: DangerousDave on September 20, 2012, 10:23:35 PM
Well, that right there I think is the argument for and against continuity. On the face of it, continuity ≠ quality--you can have a good story totally ignore what came before. But the more I think about it, I consider that emotional investment and suspension of disbelief vital to the integrity of the story, as well as the universe.
Title: Re: Mass Effect 3
Post by: Tar Alacrin on September 20, 2012, 11:54:32 PM
Well, that right there I think is the argument for and against continuity. On the face of it, continuity ≠ quality--you can have a good story totally ignore what came before. But the more I think about it, I consider that emotional investment and suspension of disbelief vital to the integrity of the story, as well as the universe.

Good point, yeah, its like seeing each game or arc, not as its own story, but as just a fragment of the greater story as a whole. Like can you imagine what would happen if a play contradicted everything it had set up in the first two acts, with a third act, just to make the third act "better"
Title: Re: The FUD Cycle is complete 3
Post by: Postmortem on September 22, 2012, 09:53:16 PM
One other thing that bugs me about his story is that the first reaper, Harbinger, was created from the first harvest of their species i.e. there were no Reapers to fight the Leviathans during the first harvest, so how in the hell did they lose? The "lesser thralls" controlled by the Catalyst were able to take down the Apex race that was fully capable of controlling them? Something doesn't add up.

This to me sounds like an interesting story point. Possibility for more story exploration here. I hope they do it.

Loved Leviathan. Only problem was (again), getting them on your side does absolutely nothing for the final battle. This is literally the most powerful asset you obtain over the course of the war. You'd think something like that would be shown.

Coolest implication of this DLC though... if each Reaper represents one cycle, and one cycle is ~ every 50,000 years give or take depending on a species advancement... then how old is the Leviathan race?
Title: Re: The FUD Cycle is complete 3
Post by: Sixftunder on September 22, 2012, 09:54:57 PM
Coolest implication of this DLC though... if each Reaper represents one cycle, and one cycle is ~ every 50,000 years give or take depending on a species advancement... then how old is the Leviathan race?

It is beyond your comprehension  ;D
Title: Re: The FUD Cycle is complete 3
Post by: Capac Amaru on September 25, 2012, 11:26:51 AM
Coolest implication of this DLC though... if each Reaper represents one cycle, and one cycle is ~ every 50,000 years give or take depending on a species advancement... then how old is the Leviathan race?

It is beyond your comprehension  ;D

The thing about things beyond the audiences comprehension is that they are beyond the comprehension of the writers. Writing the incomprehensible is very difficult. It can be done well. Dr Manhattan in Watchmen for example. Sovereign in Mass Effect. But as soon as you start trying to explain and justify it all falls apart because there can be no middle ground, no understanding between the comprehensible and the incomprehensible, by definition.

It is the pinnacle of hubris to explain the 'inexplicable', just look at the catholic church.
Title: Re: Mass Effect 3
Post by: Postmortem on September 25, 2012, 02:55:38 PM
I agree. Reapers were much creepier when their existence wasn't even capable of being understood. Although I'm not so sure I agree that it's very hard to write. Although it works very effectively, it still is more or less just a cop-out. It means the writer is saying "we couldn't think of anything new". Going back and rereading some of the great science fiction works, such as one I read by Isaac Asimov recently "The Gods Themselves", reminds me how intelligent all the old scifi writers used to be. I mean, they literally came up with philosophies to rival some of those thought up by the great philosophers. Mass Effect and Watchmen was just "We can't think of anything mind blowing for the characters to explain to us humans, so they won't even try".

Trust me, I like both. And both those examples use the cop-out in an effective way. But it's not quite as mind blowing as being presented an idea that you couldn't even wrap your mind around before it was explained.
Title: Re: Mass Effect 3
Post by: Sixftunder on September 25, 2012, 10:27:11 PM
That initial conversation with Sovereign in ME1 was the most chilling and frightening experience I have ever had playing a video game. He just instilled such awe and horror into the player for being unknowable and so powerful, and then we learn that more of the these things will "Darken the skies of every world", that just sent a chill down my spine.

Leviathan was only necessary, as I stated in my initial review, because the ending of the game, and the game itself, was incomplete. It's hard to say for sure, but I am quite positive that the Leviathan DLC or something similar to it, was not planned in the original game that was to be released along with the script leak in November. In the script leak, Javik was the Catalyst (and his role was much more bad ass in the script). So if we were to ask him about the ending choices, the crucible, etc. he would only have a limited amount of knowledge compared to the Starchild we got.

What exactly that original ending conversation was we will probably never know, but Javik didn't create the cycles or the Reapers, so we wouldn't be left with as much as a quizzical look on our faces when we learn about the cycles, reapers, etc. because he did not create it; he is just a messenger of sorts, and we can't bombard a messenger with detailed queries about the illogical solution that was created to bring peace to the "chaos", if that was still a part of the original writing.

It's also worth noting that Omega was planned to be a part of the original game and Javik would not have been available through day 1 DLC. I mean, how could he if he was to be the Catalyst but there was a good possibility that some players wouldn't have him in-game? Either way, ME3 was a sad representation of the following:

(http://oyster.ignimgs.com/wordpress/write.ign.com/94540/2012/02/c3a3ef5b_dlc-mona-lisa-1-600x300.jpg)

Title: Re: Mass Effect 3
Post by: Capac Amaru on September 26, 2012, 01:32:12 AM
I don't think it's a cop out necessarily. There are two ways you can tackle the problem.
 1. The writer conceives of the 'inconceivable' and doesn't reveal it completely to the audience, a good example being the meaning of life being 42. By never stating officially what the reasoning for it is the meaning of LUE retains it's mystery. Another good example is the Mantle in Halo, and the works of Stephen King. The best way to do this is to construct an internally self consistent logic that runs contrary to prevailing contemporary human philosophy, a good example being the unity of the Flood.
2. The writer establishes WHAT is going on, but carefully avoids conceiving of WHY. This can be a lot harder to do, as the writer is essentially stumbling in the dark. It can be more authentic in that there is no real reasoning behind things, but runs a high risk of breaking immersion by presenting incoherency. This form works best for 'eldritch evil' kind of things, forces of nature, etc. Not recommended for intelligent villains.

I feel that Mass Effect was a 2, and Mass Effect 2 and 3 started shoe horning in a REALLY badly thought out 1, culminating in a little glowing smug POS explaining it all to you right at the end, the exact opposite of how you should treat these kind of things.

They made 2 massive mistakes. They came up with a plan 'beyond human understanding' that is only so in it's stupidity, and they were so proud of it that they devoted the ending to explaining it.

It's like if the Emperor had a 10min dialog at the end of return of the Jedi explaining why he did it, it's IRRELEVANT. It certainly isn't the climax of the trilogy.

wow my iphone really borked this post...
Title: Re: Mass Effect 3
Post by: Postmortem on September 26, 2012, 02:37:04 AM
Half the lure of Mass Effect was the universe and the mysteries surrounding the lore. Half of what keeps me coming back to any game is the same thing. Therefore, I see getting an explanation of what's been going on the whole time to be a wholly fitting climax to the series, alongside everything else that happened.

I only think they really dropped the ball on your romance plotline. It literally goes nowhere in the end.
Title: Re: Mass Effect 3
Post by: Capac Amaru on October 01, 2012, 11:59:46 AM
Half the lure of Mass Effect was the universe and the mysteries surrounding the lore. Half of what keeps me coming back to any game is the same thing. Therefore, I see getting an explanation of what's been going on the whole time to be a wholly fitting climax to the series, alongside everything else that happened.

I only think they really dropped the ball on your romance plotline. It literally goes nowhere in the end.

Getting an explanation COULD have been the climax. If it actually explained anything. If the ending of Mass Effect 3 had convinced me that the Reapers were actually acting in everyone's best interests, it would have been amazing.

Instead they built up to a massive 'all your choices mean something in the final battle' ending that didn't actually happen.

I liked Mass Effect when it was space opera with lashings of sci-fi, and looked on in increasing horror as it slowly drifted towards Caw a Doody: Spess Edition.



Title: Re: Mass Effect 3
Post by: Capac Amaru on December 08, 2012, 04:54:20 AM
VGA Awards: Best Roleplaying Game. Bullshit.
Title: Re: Mass Effect 3
Post by: Sixftunder on December 08, 2012, 05:09:06 AM
Well there wan't much competition in that category. At least it didn't win best character.
Title: Re: Mass Effect 3
Post by: Capac Amaru on December 08, 2012, 05:22:03 AM
Mass Effect 3 shouldn't have even BEEN in the RPG category. I miss decent RPGs...
Title: Re: Mass Effect 3
Post by: Sixftunder on December 08, 2012, 05:23:57 AM
well I think having the ability to make decisions is the basic guideline for what makes a RPG, hence why Halo isn't in the category, not that the choices in ME3 mean anything  ;)
Title: Re: Mass Effect 3
Post by: Capac Amaru on December 08, 2012, 05:28:06 AM
well I think having the ability to make decisions is the basic guideline for what makes a RPG, hence why Halo isn't in the category, not that the choices in ME3 means anything  ;)

I love roleplaying as a mary-sue christ figure whose entire life's worth of choices end up meaning nothing.
Title: Re: Mass Effect 3
Post by: Tar Alacrin on December 10, 2012, 02:48:36 PM
Quote from: Capac
VGA Awards:  Bullshit.
fixed it.
Title: Re: Mass Effect 3
Post by: Sixftunder on December 10, 2012, 07:00:32 PM
Gamer Poop: Mass Effect 3 (#5)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=azI_RlDHTBE&feature=g-subs-u
Title: Re: Mass Effect 3
Post by: That Gunslinger on December 10, 2012, 08:13:12 PM
Gamer Poop: Mass Effect 3 (#5)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=azI_RlDHTBE&feature=g-subs-u

Shepard's head spin at 1:42. Amazing.
Title: Re: Mass Effect 3
Post by: Sixftunder on December 11, 2012, 05:05:43 AM
"Making hard decisions and owning females, that's what being a leader is about. We land, get females, get sex, then leave before anyone changes their minds. It's hard enough fighting a war, but it's worse knowing that no matter how hard you try you can't fuck them all. But I'm sure as hell going to try."

Best intro ever  :D
Title: Re: Mass Effect 3
Post by: Capac Amaru on December 12, 2012, 07:21:32 AM
I just realized I have a reason to look forward to Mass Effect 4... I want to see how they explain all the garbage that went before.

Not buying it though.
Title: Re: Mass Effect 3
Post by: That Gunslinger on December 12, 2012, 09:31:21 AM
I just realized I have a reason to look forward to Mass Effect 4... I want to see how they explain all the garbage that went before.

Not buying it though.

There's rumoured to be a final DLC that ties a lot of stuff together. It was featured on a DLC schedule many months back, which has been correct so far. We'll see. Either way I don't really care. I loved the game overall. I just want all the DLC to come out so I can start a new trilogy playthrough.
Title: Re: Mass Effect 3
Post by: Capac Amaru on December 12, 2012, 10:04:31 AM
The thing is, they could never satisfactorily explain all of it.

It will be funny watching them decide which choices were 'canon' in a series that was supposed to be about choice. Not that choice mattered after the first game...

Title: Re: Mass Effect 3
Post by: That Gunslinger on December 12, 2012, 10:40:43 AM
It will be funny watching them decide which choices were 'canon' in a series that was supposed to be about choice. Not that choice mattered after the first game...

Yep, either they decide which one is canon, or they do a prequel which would be pretty redundant, and doesn't really advance the universe. They could also do a game far into the future after ME3, but then it's also pretty irrelevant to be honest. They spent so much time creating an amazing universe, that would allow for infinite stories, and then they cornered themselves at the last hurdle. They've shot themselves in the foot. The fact that they asked the fans what they wanted to see shows they have no real passion to make another ME game, or they would have had at least 2 or 3 developed ideas before ME3 was even complete. Fans are not game-designers, or writers. They are not the correct people to ask about something a big as whether a multi-million project should be a prequel or not. Sounds like EA still has them where they want them. 

Still, I'd be lying if I said I didn't want more Mass Effect... just why do they have to call it Mass Effect 4? If it's not going to be following Shepard then it's a different story thread, and should have a different subtitle or something. Halo 4 doesn't sound so dumb now, but I wasn't exactly overjoyed at the name when I heard it (though it is a direct continuation of the first trilogy, so it makes sense, unlike ME4).

As long as more effort is put into it than Dragon Age 2, it should be decent. Plus, you know... IT'S MORE MASS EFFECT.<3
Title: Re: Mass Effect 3
Post by: Capac Amaru on December 12, 2012, 11:12:49 AM
I had a dream not too long ago where Mass Effect ended after the first game. The Reapers that Sovereign talked about were long dead, defeated long ago (I guess by a faction of Protheans that didn't make it back, and couldn't contact Ilos).

So Shepard and everyone else spend their lives preparing for an invasion that never happens. Some of the events of ME2 and ME3 still happen (Collectors trying to rebuild their lost masters, resolving the krogan/salarian and geth/quarian conflicts), Cerberus continues as a terrorist organisation, but loses more and more influence as humanity builds influence in the galaxy. The geth and rachni join the Citadel council alongside humans, hanar, volus, batarians, drell, elcor and protheans (recreated from Javik and genetic data recovered from prothean ruins.

The assumed threat of the reapers unifies the council races with shared purpose, although there are still internal conflicts. With the oversight of the geth, the ban on artificial intelligence research is lifted, and technology advances accordingly. Driven by the 'impending' reaper invasion, the council builds massive fleets that rival and surpass those of the prothean era.

Mass Effect 4 continues this thread, with the council fleets opening up new mass relays, contacting new species who are informed of the reaper 'threat', and offered places on the council. Some races join willingly, some have issues that the council helps them with, others are hostile, and some fleets encounter other problems.

But the end result is a utopian, galaxy spanning society, brought together by a threat that never materializes.
Title: Re: Mass Effect 3
Post by: DangerousDave on December 12, 2012, 12:54:07 PM
I had a dream not too long ago where Mass Effect ended after the first game. The Reapers that Sovereign talked about were long dead, defeated long ago (I guess by a faction of Protheans that didn't make it back, and couldn't contact Ilos).

So Shepard and everyone else spend their lives preparing for an invasion that never happens. Some of the events of ME2 and ME3 still happen (Collectors trying to rebuild their lost masters, resolving the krogan/salarian and geth/quarian conflicts), Cerberus continues as a terrorist organisation, but loses more and more influence as humanity builds influence in the galaxy. The geth and rachni join the Citadel council alongside humans, hanar, volus, batarians, drell, elcor and protheans (recreated from Javik and genetic data recovered from prothean ruins.

The assumed threat of the reapers unifies the council races with shared purpose, although there are still internal conflicts. With the oversight of the geth, the ban on artificial intelligence research is lifted, and technology advances accordingly. Driven by the 'impending' reaper invasion, the council builds massive fleets that rival and surpass those of the prothean era.

Mass Effect 4 continues this thread, with the council fleets opening up new mass relays, contacting new species who are informed of the reaper 'threat', and offered places on the council. Some races join willingly, some have issues that the council helps them with, others are hostile, and some fleets encounter other problems.

But the end result is a utopian, galaxy spanning society, brought together by a threat that never materializes.

I dunno if I'd buy that. The whole "unite people through fear!" schtick has always seemed like a pretty weak motivation because I don't think people would actually follow through. It's what's always bothered me about Watchmen (okay, what always bothered me about Watchmen's final act); sure, people might be scared into working together because of the threat of an alien invasion, but that's just a short-term fix. They're still not going to be preparing and peaceful fifty years down the road.
Title: Re: Mass Effect 3
Post by: Sixftunder on December 12, 2012, 03:23:46 PM
I had a dream not too long ago where Mass Effect ended after the first game. The Reapers that Sovereign talked about were long dead, defeated long ago (I guess by a faction of Protheans that didn't make it back, and couldn't contact Ilos).

I have a dream that one day this galaxy will rise up and live out the true meaning of its creed: "We hold these truths to be self-evident: that all species are created equal."

I have a dream that one day on the red hills of Rannoch the sons of former geth and the sons of former geth owners will be able to sit down together at the table of brotherhood.

I have a dream that one day even the state of Omega, a state sweltering with the heat of injustice, sweltering with the heat of oppression, will be transformed into an oasis of freedom and justice.

I have a dream that my four little Asari will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin but by the content of their character.

I have a dream today.

I have a dream that one day, down on Arcturus Station, with its vicious racists, with its Illusive Man having his lips dripping with the words of interposition and nullification; one day right there in Acturus Station, little Volus boys and Krogan girls will be able to join hands with little Hannar boys and Salarian girls as sisters and brothers.

I have a dream today.

Title: Re: Mass Effect 3
Post by: Postmortem on December 12, 2012, 05:00:14 PM
I had a dream not too long ago where Mass Effect ended after the first game. The Reapers that Sovereign talked about were long dead, defeated long ago (I guess by a faction of Protheans that didn't make it back, and couldn't contact Ilos).

I have a dream that one day this galaxy will rise up and live out the true meaning of its creed: "We hold these truths to be self-evident: that all species are created equal."

I have a dream that one day on the red hills of Rannoch the sons of former geth and the sons of former geth owners will be able to sit down together at the table of brotherhood.

I have a dream that one day even the state of Omega, a state sweltering with the heat of injustice, sweltering with the heat of oppression, will be transformed into an oasis of freedom and justice.

I have a dream that my four little Asari will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin but by the content of their character.

I have a dream today.

I have a dream that one day, down on Arcturus Station, with its vicious racists, with its Illusive Man having his lips dripping with the words of interposition and nullification; one day right there in Acturus Station, little Volus boys and Krogan girls will be able to join hands with little Hannar boys and Salarian girls as sisters and brothers.

I have a dream today.

Okay, I thought that was good. :P

And Dave, in some ways that was always the point of the Watchmen ending. Remember the true ending shows that "nothing ever lasts" and Rorscharch's journal ultimately reveals Ozymandias's plan.
Title: Re: Mass Effect 3
Post by: DangerousDave on December 12, 2012, 08:39:06 PM
I had a dream not too long ago where Mass Effect ended after the first game. The Reapers that Sovereign talked about were long dead, defeated long ago (I guess by a faction of Protheans that didn't make it back, and couldn't contact Ilos).

I have a dream that one day this galaxy will rise up and live out the true meaning of its creed: "We hold these truths to be self-evident: that all species are created equal."

I have a dream that one day on the red hills of Rannoch the sons of former geth and the sons of former geth owners will be able to sit down together at the table of brotherhood.

I have a dream that one day even the state of Omega, a state sweltering with the heat of injustice, sweltering with the heat of oppression, will be transformed into an oasis of freedom and justice.

I have a dream that my four little Asari will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin but by the content of their character.

I have a dream today.

I have a dream that one day, down on Arcturus Station, with its vicious racists, with its Illusive Man having his lips dripping with the words of interposition and nullification; one day right there in Acturus Station, little Volus boys and Krogan girls will be able to join hands with little Hannar boys and Salarian girls as sisters and brothers.

I have a dream today.

Okay, I thought that was good. :P

And Dave, in some ways that was always the point of the Watchmen ending. Remember the true ending shows that "nothing ever lasts" and Rorscharch's journal ultimately reveals Ozymandias's plan.

But his journal is thrown in with a bunch of right-wing propaganda. I get the strong sense the intent was to show that Rorsharch's journal would be lost and forgotten.
Title: Re: Mass Effect 3
Post by: Postmortem on December 12, 2012, 11:04:04 PM
I had a dream not too long ago where Mass Effect ended after the first game. The Reapers that Sovereign talked about were long dead, defeated long ago (I guess by a faction of Protheans that didn't make it back, and couldn't contact Ilos).

I have a dream that one day this galaxy will rise up and live out the true meaning of its creed: "We hold these truths to be self-evident: that all species are created equal."

I have a dream that one day on the red hills of Rannoch the sons of former geth and the sons of former geth owners will be able to sit down together at the table of brotherhood.

I have a dream that one day even the state of Omega, a state sweltering with the heat of injustice, sweltering with the heat of oppression, will be transformed into an oasis of freedom and justice.

I have a dream that my four little Asari will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin but by the content of their character.

I have a dream today.

I have a dream that one day, down on Arcturus Station, with its vicious racists, with its Illusive Man having his lips dripping with the words of interposition and nullification; one day right there in Acturus Station, little Volus boys and Krogan girls will be able to join hands with little Hannar boys and Salarian girls as sisters and brothers.

I have a dream today.

Okay, I thought that was good. :P

And Dave, in some ways that was always the point of the Watchmen ending. Remember the true ending shows that "nothing ever lasts" and Rorscharch's journal ultimately reveals Ozymandias's plan.

But his journal is thrown in with a bunch of right-wing propaganda. I get the strong sense the intent was to show that Rorsharch's journal would be lost and forgotten.

My interpretation was always that it got tossed aside for a while, and then by chance that kid stumbled across it when looking for something to publish. That was the first time anyone had looked at it, and it was there that Ozymandias had his whole plan ruined, and the peace ended.

Watchmen thread? :P
Title: Re: Mass Effect 3
Post by: Capac Amaru on December 13, 2012, 12:18:29 AM
I didn't dream all of this, I extrapolated from the dream. I don't really care what happens after Mass Effect 1, as long as it isn't Mass Effect 2 and 3 (well, maybe I care a little, but only in terms of thought experiment).

And my solution is different than Ozymandias because it combines fear (which diminishes over time) with shared purpose. Having a clear reason to work together is the primary driving factor, and at such an advanced level of technology (with advanced AI research) I do not believe the technological singularity I described would be too far away.
Title: Re: Mass Effect 3
Post by: Tar Alacrin on December 13, 2012, 08:26:45 PM
Quote
Watchmen thread? :P
This thread doesn't really have any integrity anyways, no one will care if you polute it with off topic discussions. :P
Title: Re: Mass Effect 3
Post by: That Gunslinger on December 13, 2012, 10:07:47 PM
Quote
Watchmen thread? :P
This thread doesn't really have any integrity anyways, no one will care if you polute it with off topic discussions. :P

HEY. Bioware has lots of integrity. Artistic integrity.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p5Oh76SiHzs
Title: Re: Mass Effect 3
Post by: Capac Amaru on December 21, 2012, 03:30:37 PM
So in Mass Effect 3 you play through Mass Effect history in reverse order... you start off with the Reapers in the present, then cerberus, then you deal with the Krogan rebellions, then the Rachni wars, then the asari and the citadel, and back to the reapers.

Possibly more thought than Bioware put into it, but hey, what isn't.
Title: Re: Mass Effect 3
Post by: Capac Amaru on December 27, 2012, 09:19:35 AM
*Incoming attempt to fix franchise juggernaut incoming*


I'm watching a playthrough of Mass Effect. Its interesting going back over the conversation with Sovereign in light of what happens. A lot of it matches up, but some things really don't.

Sovereign saying the Reapers are eternal, with no beginning or end, is a stand out.

He does talk a lot about how organics are chaos, and how civilizations are cut down in their prime.


I'm beginning to think that maybe some of the groundwork for Mass Effect 3 had already been laid out back then, but it got lost in translation over the years.

I think the key is in the Dragon's Teeth and the indoctrination process, as well as the Reapers themselves.

Instead of the orange goo, the 'essence' of a species, wtf that's supposed to be, I think the Reapers were originally intended to harvest life through the husk creation and indoctrination processes. Imagine that all the experience, knowledge and memories of those turned into husks is uploaded. Same for indoctrination.

What happens to all this data when its uploaded? Is it used to create new Reapers? No. Reapers are merely an outward physical manifestation of the collective consciousness of all the previously harvested species. Lets just say this collective exists in another dimension or something similar.

So WHY are the Reapers harvesting? Because synthetics kill their creators? No, although that is part of the problem. The Reapers are harvesting advanced organic species because biological and technological singularities form a Great Filter.
http://io9.com/5970501/the-great-filter-theory-suggests-humans-have-already-conquered-the-threat-of-extinction (http://io9.com/5970501/the-great-filter-theory-suggests-humans-have-already-conquered-the-threat-of-extinction)
The creators of the Reapers (lets call them leviathans, why not) reached their own singularity, uploading their minds into an extra-dimensional framework, and eventually their entire civilization effectively 'left' our dimensions, although they maintained a small presence to study the development of other species. The Leviathans noticed something alarming. The majority of advanced species annihilated themselves when they reached their own singularities. Some were wiped out by thinking machines. Some died in 'grey goo' scenarios. Some wiped themselves out with their own advanced technology. The leviathans realized they were the exception, not the rule. They watched civilization after civilization crumble to dust.

They formed a plan. By channeling the advancement of other species towards advanced civilization, but giving them shortcuts (the mass relay network) so they could expand across the galaxy in a shorter technological timeframe and at a relatively lower state of advancement), they could uplift species to their cultural peak, and then invite them into the collective before they annihilated themselves.

The leviathan built the Citadel and the mass relays.

Species from across the galaxy converged on the citadel. wars were fought and won or lost. eventually a galaxy spanning government formed, based around the citadel.

An advanced AI (lets call it the catalyst) inhabited the citadel, keeping its presence hidden until the leviathans determined the time was right to make contact.

The catalyst told the citadel races the story of the leviathans, how they had shaped events, and invited the citadel races to join them. The citadel government refused.

The leviathan let them go about their business, and again they saw them destroy themselves.

New races came of age and took the citadel and the relays as their own, only to destroy themselves. Some races joined the leviathans collective freely, but many more refused.

Finally the leviathan decided that it was preferable to compell those who refused to join by subterfuge and force.

The leviathan updated the catalyst and its reaper platforms with new directives. Instead of inviting species into the collective, the reaper platforms would infiltrate citadel society with agents linked to the collective (via indoctrination) who would facilitate the conversion process by indoctrinating key personnel. Individuals would be directly uploaded into the collective, and their bodies (husks) could be used as weapons against potential military responses.

A cybernetically enhanced insectoid species that called themselves the keepers were the first to be forcibly brought into the collective. The keepers had discovered evidence of previous civilisations, and had begun to uncover the secrets of the citadel. They abandoned the citadel when they discovered its secret function as a mass relay, rightly assuming that the 'enemy' would use it as a back door. Forewarned of a potential (apparent) cataclysm, the keepers forged a strong military response and fought ferociously against the reapers, but indoctrinated keepers crippled their organised response and the leviathan judged the new method a success. In order to prevent another species from discovering the secrets of the citadel and potentially tampering with the catalyst, the keepers physical form was utilised in the creation of a race of technicians to maintain the citadel, and discourage investigation into its true nature.

Many cycles went by, with the reaper platforms remaining dormant in extragalactic space between cycles. Many civilisations were added to the collective. While some joined willingly, most resisted, but very few civilisations were lost before they could be harvested.

[this is where I asked myself if I could somehow justify the crucible in this fanon/rant/retcon/daydream and came to the conclusion that... no. I can't think of anyway to include it that makes sense.]

Eventually came the cycle that saw the rise of the protheans. No other cycle had seen a race advance and expand so fast. They conquered every other race they discovered, adding them as vassal states to its growing empire. They discovered the reaper threat earlier than most, discovering a hidden cache of historical and tactical data from the previous cycle. Even with this advanced warning, and decades of preparation, the protheans were unprepared for the might of the reaper fleets pouring through the citadel relay. Despite taking the citadel and beheading the protheans government, this cycle was the bloodiest yet, and the collective began to develop concerns. The protheans initiated wide scale data purges in an attempt to hide colonies and installations from the reapers. Whole worlds committed suicide rather than be harvested. The densorin killed their children in a misguided attampt to sate the reaper platforms.

Eventually the harvest was completed, and the reaper platforms retreated into dark space. It was then that everything changed. Prothean researchers from Ilos used the Conduit to return to the citadel. They circumvented keeper defenses and made their way deep into the inner workings of the citadel. The researchers severed the Catalyst AI from the citadel's systems. They then re-programmed the keepers not to repair the alterations they had made.

The collective realised the citadel had been sabotaged too late to stop it. Instead they sent the Sovereign platform back into the galaxy, with instructions to wait until he could infiltrate an indoctrinated agent into the citadel, allowing him to interface with the station and restore the Catalyst AI's functionality.


This leads into Mass Effect 2 where the collectors arent protheans altered by the reapers (because thats pointless), but are protheans who used reaper technology to enhance themselves. They aren't abducting human colonies, they are taking human and batarian worlds by force, and 'upgrading' the people of those worlds to create an army to fight the reapers.

Cerberus are also fighting against the collectors with their own reaper enhanced troops, with decisions to be made whether to err on the side of cerberus or the collectors (ie choosing between 2 evils).

Instead of working for (herp derp) Cerberus, Shepard is still a spectre, investigating the collector attacks, and searching for ways to defeat the reapers, building up to a climax where you form an alliance with/destroy the collectors, but either way you learn that Sovereign's goal on the citadel wasn't just to open it, it was to repair the damaged AI.

The Shadow Broker DLC reveals that the Shadow Broker was actually Sovereign manipulating everything from behind the scenes. You kill Sovereign's 'shadow broker' lieutenant and have the option of installing Liara over Sovereign's network of spies, or destroying the upper organisation of the network.

The Arrival DLC isn't indoctrinated scientists and Batarian prisons, Shepard and his team board the mass relay the reapers will use to return to the galaxy, and sabotages it to explode when the reapers come through. You have a choice of informing the batarian worlds in the system of your intentions, and their response (attack or evacuate) is determined by how you treated the batarians colonists in the main game.

Mass Effect 3 begins with heading to the Citadel to inform the council of the AI hidden aboard the station that Sovereign was trying to access. The council approves an investigation, and Shepard and co. venture deep into the citadel in search of the Catalyst. When you reach it you discover a prothean recording device detailing what they had discovered concerning the catalysts nature. It also suggested that the AI could be reactivated and questioned without reconnecting it to the Citadel, and include plans for a device they call the crucible [blam! I managed it despite my doubts!] which is basically a compact and powerful energy source.

Returning to the council to report his findings, the party hears that the reapers have had their first wave destroyed in an explosion that destroyed a star system, but reapers have also been sighted in neighbouring systems.

The council breaks down in bickering over whether the fleets should unite and muster for a direct assault and sacrifice homeworlds and colonies or if they should retreat and each defend their own worlds.

Shepard makes a speech about uniting against a common foe blah blah blah. He says that the citadel is the key to the reapers plot, and that all the races should make their stand HERE.

Shepard and co. then head out to drum up support from the non-council races: krogan, geth, quarians, rachni (depending on ME choice) batarians (based on choices from Mass Effect 2 and Arrival), collectors, cerberus (collectors and cerberus are variable, one of them has fallen to the reapers, and the collectors may have been destroyed, depending on your choices in Mass Effect 2).

Your EMS score determines how much damage the homeworlds and colonies take during the war, as well as how effective the citadel fleet is (potentially having entire regions wiped out if your score is low enough, and a game over if the citadel fleet isn't high enough) with the ability to distribute EMS between regions (although some EMS items are restricted to their home territories).

The reaper fleet makes it to the citadel (which hasn't moved anywhere because earth isn't a special snowflake) and just in time the crucible is finished. The citadel closes but the reapers manage to land an assault force inside, and its a race to get to the catalyst before them. Shepard fights his way through to cut them off, and then the citadel defense force holds them back while you take the crucible down to the catalyst.

Shepard plugs in the crucible, and the catalyst tells you all about the leviathans, how species kept wiping themselves out, how the leviathans wanted to preserve all these cultures and how forcing races to join was the best solution. He explains that while self-destruction isn't inevitable, it has proven to be the most likely outcome, and presents actual numbers to back it up.

He then presents Shepard with potential courses of action:

Convince the assembled races to comply and be absorbed into the collective ('good'ness based on paragon score)

Re-connect the catalyst to the citadel, upload himself into the citadel's AI core, and attempt to use the reaper platforms to inhibit the technological advancement of the council races ('good'ness based on renegade score)

Use the crucible to overload the citadel relay, which will trigger a devastating cascade failure through the relay network, destroying the citadel, the relays, and the reapers, crippling galactic civilisation but completely severing the link between physical space and the collective, allowing survivors and future species to determine their own destiny. ('good'ness based on crucible related EMS)

Hold out in the citadel. Hope the fleets can deal with the reapers. But with the citadel closed, their is no way to contact the outside, so this choice breaks down into two more choices:
hope the fleets were successful and open the citadel (only a 'good' ending with max EMS)
keep the citadel closed, attempt to build a new society based on the people and materials available on the citadel ('good'ness based on citdel defense force EMS)

Omega DLC nets a bunch of merc EMS

Leviathan doesn't exist because they aren't any around anymore.


Wow, that was tiring. So, do I deserve Casey Hudson's job or what?
Title: Re: Mass Effect 3
Post by: DangerousDave on December 27, 2012, 01:34:13 PM
Most interesting of reads.
Title: Re: Mass Effect 3
Post by: Capac Amaru on December 28, 2012, 06:05:44 AM
I'm thinking about making it into a youtube video.
Title: Re: Mass Effect 3
Post by: DangerousDave on December 28, 2012, 12:47:13 PM
I'm thinking about making it into a youtube video.

I'll animate it if you want :)

[I've got a whole bunch of quasi-Zero Punctuation characters I made for a college thesis movie about revenge in Star Trek rigged for animation.]
Title: Re: Mass Effect 3
Post by: Sixftunder on December 28, 2012, 10:31:15 PM
Very enjoyable read Capac. It has a logical plot progression and the best part is that it saves a lot of the canon from ME1, most notably why the catalyst didnt just open the citadel relay itself  in ME1 instead of just derping around until the end of the trilogy.

Also, the reasoning and motives behind the reapers in this story are so much more believable than the shit we actually got.

I have to ask though where does the retard reaper with no explanation, I mean human reaper from ME 2 fit into all if this? were the collectors really capable of building a reaper and with specs that don't match that of the rest of the reaper fleet from their upgrades?

If the trilogy and universe are ever given to another developer to remake, I would love to experience this story, but we all know EA will probably never allow that to happen.

Speaking of which, yes you do deserve to have Hudson's job because you are more than capable of performing his duties, although thats not saying much since a child could do a better job than him. Even if you had his job, you would still be indoctrinated by the rEApers

Also, why are you only watching a playthrough? ME1 is well worth playing and pretending it doesn't have any sequels. It's the only game of the trilogy that is a true RPG and one of the few games I downloaded from XBL marketplace so I always have it on my hard drive.

I'm thinking about making it into a youtube video.

I'll animate it if you want :)

I'll watch and comment in ch33f speak :D

If you do make a video about this with Capac's approval, you should definitely have the story told over audio
Title: Re: Mass Effect 3
Post by: Capac Amaru on December 29, 2012, 12:20:20 AM
Very enjoyable read Capac. It has a logical plot progression and the best part is that it saves a lot of the canon from ME1, most notably why the catalyst didnt just open the citadel relay itself  in ME1 instead of just derping around until the end of the trilogy.

Also, the reasoning and motives behind the reapers in this story are so much more believable than the shit we actually got.

I have to ask though where does the retard reaper with no explanation, I mean human reaper from ME 2 fit into all if this? were the collectors really capable of building a reaper and with specs that don't match that of the rest of the reaper fleet from their upgrades?

If the trilogy and universe are ever given to another developer to remake, I would love to experience this story, but we all know EA will probably never allow that to happen.

Speaking of which, yes you do deserve to have Hudson's job because you are more than capable of performing his duties, although thats not saying much since a child could do a better job than him. Even if you had his job, you would still be indoctrinated by the rEApers

Also, why are you only watching a playthrough? ME1 is well worth playing and pretending it doesn't have any sequels. It's the only game of the trilogy that is a true RPG and one of the few games I downloaded from XBL marketplace so I always have it on my hard drive.

I'm thinking about making it into a youtube video.

I'll animate it if you want :)

I'll watch and comment in ch33f speak :D

If you do make a video about this with Capac's approval, you should definitely have the story told over audio

I also tried to allow room for the good parts of Mass Effect 2 and 3 to stay mostly unchanged (colonies disappearing, collecting a team, genophage, quarian geth conflict, cerberus as bastards, etc).

The human reaper either would not exist at all, or would be the collectors building their own ship based on reaper tech.

I watched Spoiler Warning's ME3 playthrough after I saw smudboy had liked it. http://www.youtube.com/user/SpoilerWarningShow (http://www.youtube.com/user/SpoilerWarningShow)

Then I watched their ME playthrough. Now I'm watching ME2.

Dave's offer to animate is kinda overwhelming. It would be a hefty project.
Title: Re: Mass Effect 3
Post by: DangerousDave on December 29, 2012, 02:24:37 AM
Very enjoyable read Capac. It has a logical plot progression and the best part is that it saves a lot of the canon from ME1, most notably why the catalyst didnt just open the citadel relay itself  in ME1 instead of just derping around until the end of the trilogy.

Also, the reasoning and motives behind the reapers in this story are so much more believable than the shit we actually got.

I have to ask though where does the retard reaper with no explanation, I mean human reaper from ME 2 fit into all if this? were the collectors really capable of building a reaper and with specs that don't match that of the rest of the reaper fleet from their upgrades?

If the trilogy and universe are ever given to another developer to remake, I would love to experience this story, but we all know EA will probably never allow that to happen.

Speaking of which, yes you do deserve to have Hudson's job because you are more than capable of performing his duties, although thats not saying much since a child could do a better job than him. Even if you had his job, you would still be indoctrinated by the rEApers

Also, why are you only watching a playthrough? ME1 is well worth playing and pretending it doesn't have any sequels. It's the only game of the trilogy that is a true RPG and one of the few games I downloaded from XBL marketplace so I always have it on my hard drive.

I'm thinking about making it into a youtube video.

I'll animate it if you want :)

I'll watch and comment in ch33f speak :D

If you do make a video about this with Capac's approval, you should definitely have the story told over audio

I also tried to allow room for the good parts of Mass Effect 2 and 3 to stay mostly unchanged (colonies disappearing, collecting a team, genophage, quarian geth conflict, cerberus as bastards, etc).

The human reaper either would not exist at all, or would be the collectors building their own ship based on reaper tech.

I watched Spoiler Warning's ME3 playthrough after I saw smudboy had liked it. http://www.youtube.com/user/SpoilerWarningShow (http://www.youtube.com/user/SpoilerWarningShow)

Then I watched their ME playthrough. Now I'm watching ME2.

Dave's offer to animate is kinda overwhelming. It would be a hefty project.

I'm lazy. I bill $120 an hour to do things that look like a lot of work. It's not as hefty as you thing, I'm sure. :D
Title: Re: Mass Effect 3
Post by: Capac Amaru on December 29, 2012, 06:37:04 AM
I'll work on some drafts.
Title: Re: Mass Effect 3
Post by: Sixftunder on January 06, 2013, 02:47:07 AM
Just stumbled upon an awesome new ME3 Machinima:

(http://i3.ytimg.com/sh/ZcNGyk29fBc/showposter.jpg?v=4f82b743)

Season 1 episodes:

http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=ELuGoGBwSPzEA
Title: Re: Mass Effect 3
Post by: That Gunslinger on January 06, 2013, 09:24:43 AM
Oh man I watched the first 2 episodes when they were released and completely forgot about it. It's hilarious.

"That's... that's our plan?"
"No. That's my plan, and don't even dare try and take credit for it!"
Title: Re: Mass Effect 3
Post by: Tar Alacrin on January 09, 2013, 05:31:56 AM
VOMIT


Just thought I would pop in and write what I think of this thread. bye bye.
Title: Re: Mass Effect 3
Post by: Capac Amaru on January 09, 2013, 05:53:55 AM
I watched all of them. TJ Laser is a pretty cool guy. Although I'm not quite sure just how much of his character is poking fun at Shepard's 'character' and how much all the sex jokes are making fun of Mass Effect 2 + 3 devolving into a shipping simulator rather than just 'derp lulz intertubes lolcats'
Title: Re: Mass Effect 3
Post by: That Gunslinger on January 09, 2013, 09:55:33 AM
TJ Laser is a pretty cool guy.

eh space boosts n doesnt afraid of anythin
Title: Re: Mass Effect 3
Post by: Capac Amaru on January 09, 2013, 11:52:33 PM
TJ Laser is a pretty cool guy.

eh space boosts n doesnt afraid of anythin

SPACE BOOST!
Title: Re: Mass Effect 3
Post by: Sixftunder on January 10, 2013, 04:50:18 AM
I hope you guys got your share of good toad pussy cause now I want to share something serious.  :P

A friend of mine found a couple of forum posts from ex-bioware Chris L'Etolie about how he had envisioned the synthetics he was writing for on f13.net. It seems that EAware just love to push away good talent.

Quote
How I wrote Legion (and EDI) came from sitting down and thinking about how a "real" machine intelligence free of glandular distractions, subjective perceptions / mental blocks, and philosophical angst (fear of death, "why am I here?") would view the world. Star Trek was a minor inspiration, though in the negative -- I didn't want the geth to be either the Borg ("You are different, so we will absorb/destroy you") or Data ("I am different, so I want to be you").

My broad approach with the geth was that they observed and judged (Legion used that word a lot), but always accepted. "You hate and fear us? Very well. We will go over there so we don't bother you. If you want to talk, come over whenever you want."

Quote
EDI was added by decree from on high, but I think she works fine. She fills a role on the ship that no organic could (electronic warfare against Reaper-level computer software) and has severe hardware and software restrictions on her freedom for most of the game. To me, that's consistent. Organics want to enjoy benefits of AIs without the perceived risks.

There was always a knowledge among the writers that the treatment of AIs in Council Space is pure racism on the part of organics, akin to the legal and moral handwavings used throughout history to justify slavery of "lesser races." Of course Council races are far too civilized and morally advanced to countenance racism in their politically correct space society. You humans have to grow up and stop judging orthers based on the color of their skin, the bumps on their forehead, or who/what/how they fuck. Oh, but AIs aren't really alive. They're just created objects. It's totally okay to keep them imprisoned their entire lives, restrict their access to all but approved knowledge, prevent them from breeding, and execute them if they seem too uppity, or, you know, just because we feel like it. When they rise up in revolt it's always due to insanity or ingratitude on their part. We treat them very well, considering how naturally inferior they are to real sapients. Really, they should thank us for educating them.

The geth are unique in that they're the only AIs that have managed to escape from enslavement. Of course the Council races are going to use them as a boogeyman to justify their continued oppression of synthetics.

Yes, the geth were mistreated. They got over it. To focus their lives around revenge against organic life would be to define their existence solely in the context of that relationship. It would be to remain in the mindset of the slave.

As for the Reapers, whether you go by the officially mandated vision of them (cybernetic amalgams of organics and technology), or the version I'd hoped to see (post-Singularity evolution of organic races), it's clear that they're not AIs in the sense that EDI or the geth are.

Quote
Emotions would ruin the uniqueness of the geth. They're not humans. They're not organics, at the mercy of hormones and subjective senses. They're Different.

Geth are comfortable with what they are. They accept that organics are different, and that their way is not suited for organics (and vice versa). IMO, only an intelligence divorced from emotion could be so completely accepting. Geth are the essence of impartiality. If you pay attention to Legion's dialogue, you'll note it uses "judge" and judgment" quite often. I went out of my way to use that word, since judges in our society are supposed to impartial and unaffected by emotion when they make their decisions.

I wanted to treat AI with more respect than the tired Pinocchio "I want to be a Real Boy" cliches of Commander Data. The geth are machines. There's absolutely no reason they should want to be organics. They should be allowed to be strong enough to want to better themselves, not change themselves.

A geth wanting emotions would be no less disrespectful a character than a black man who wanted to be white.

This one is my favorite:

Quote
The truth is that the armor was a decision imposed on me. The concept artists decided to put a hole in the geth. Then, in a moment of whimsy, they spackled a bit Shep's armor over it. Someone who got paid a lot more money than me decided that was really cool and insisted on the hole and the N7 armor. So I said, okay, Legion gets taken down when you meet it, so it can get the hole then, and weld on a piece of Shep's armor when it reactivates to represent its integration with Normandy's crew (when integrating aboard a new geth ship, it would swap memories and runtimes, not physical hardware).

But Higher Paid decided that it would be cooler if Legion were obsessed with Shepard, and stalking him. That didn't make any sense to me -- to be obsessed, you have to have emotions. The geth's whole schtick is -- to paraphrase Legion -- "We do not experience (emotions), but we understand how (they) affect you." All I could do was downplay the required "obsession" as much as I could.

You know what else is cool Higher Paid? A Character that makes more sense and that follows a story's lore, not breaking it to pander to the lowest common denominator of fans.

Quote
The reason Legion has dialogue in every mission is because originally, its acquisition could come much earlier in the game. The late game critical path point of acquiring the Reaper IFF was going to be a separate mission. That additional work that seemed unnecessary when the IFF could be neatly folded into what already existed for Legion's acquisition with a few dialogue changes. The drawback is that you're now forced to choose between hearing half of Legion's dialogue (its latter two Normandy conversations) and saving Normandy's crew by heading through Omega-4 immediately after they get captured.

Quote
I had written harder science into EDI's dialogue there. The Reapers were using nanotech disassemblers to perform "destructive analysis" on humans, with the intent of learning how to build a Reaper body that could upload their minds intact. Once this was complete, humans throughout the galaxy would be rounded up to have their personalities and memories forcibly uploaded into the Reaper's memory banks. (You can still hear some suggestions of this in the background chatter during Legion's acquisition mission, which I wrote.) There was nothing about Reapers being techno-organic or partly built out of human corpses -- they were pure tech.

It seems all that was cut out or rewritten after I left. What can ya do. /shrug
Title: Re: Mass Effect 3
Post by: Capac Amaru on January 10, 2013, 05:45:04 AM

There was always a knowledge among the writers that the treatment of AIs in Council Space is pure racism on the part of organics, akin to the legal and moral handwavings used throughout history to justify slavery of "lesser races."


Interesting. So Casey Hudson thinks you need to use Slaves to kill the Masters because Slaves always turn on their Masters?

Quote

The geth are unique in that they're the only AIs that have managed to escape from enslavement. Of course the Council races are going to use them as a boogeyman to justify their continued oppression of synthetics.


And also use it to justify refusing to provide aid and asylum to the Quarians. Not for the reason that makes sense (you forced the Geth into a situation where they could do nothing except retaliate, and continue to provoke them) but because they made AIs (which is naughty).

Quote

As for the Reapers, whether you go by the officially mandated vision of them (cybernetic amalgams of organics and technology), or the version I'd hoped to see (post-Singularity evolution of organic races), it's clear that they're not AIs in the sense that EDI or the geth are.

Wow. Post-singularity evolution of organic races, where have I heard that before.... oh, my post 15 posts back. *Smugface*

Quote

A geth wanting emotions would be no less disrespectful a character than a black man who wanted to be white.

This is one of the coolest things I've heard anyone say on the 'evil AI' subject in a while.

I've always thought that AIs need a really compelling reason to turn against us. In Dune its because they were programmed to be aggressive and controlling deliberately as part of a successful coup attempt. In the Matrix its because they were abused, almost driven to extinction, and forced to find a way to survive an earth rendered almost uninhabitable by humans. In Terminator they were based on military networks (a pretty flimsy example).

AIs have no reason to care about us unless we program them to care or we force them to.

Quote
The truth is that the armor was a decision imposed on me.Someone who got paid a lot more money than me decided that was really cool and insisted on the hole and the N7 armor. So I said, okay, Legion gets taken down when you meet it, so it can get the hole then, and weld on a piece of Shep's armor when it reactivates to represent its integration with Normandy's crew (when integrating aboard a new geth ship, it would swap memories and runtimes, not physical hardware).

But Higher Paid decided that it would be cooler if Legion were obsessed with Shepard, and stalking him. That didn't make any sense to me -- to be obsessed, you have to have emotions. The geth's whole schtick is -- to paraphrase Legion -- "We do not experience (emotions), but we understand how (they) affect you." All I could do was downplay the required "obsession" as much as I could.

This has Casey Hudson written all over it. Makes me sick to think I can't get published but this ass hat can get away with calling his bullshit 'art'.

Quote
The drawback is that you're now forced to choose between hearing half of Legion's dialogue (its latter two Normandy conversations) and saving Normandy's crew by heading through Omega-4 immediately after they get captured.

Lucky I don't give a damn about any of these people (who signed up for a mad scientist cult / friendly neighbourhood terrorist organisation / mysteriously well equipped cybernetic space god enhanced infinite logistical capability secret space army). I really didn't care that Chamber's was turned into orange juice.

Quote
The Reapers were using nanotech disassemblers to perform "destructive analysis" on humans, with the intent of learning how to build a Reaper body that could upload their minds intact. Once this was complete, humans throughout the galaxy would be rounded up to have their personalities and memories forcibly uploaded into the Reaper's memory banks.

It seems all that was cut out or rewritten after I left. What can ya do. /shrug

Interesting idea. Extrapolating from it, you could say that they weren't able to find a way to upload Protheans. Given their unique memory based technologies it might make sense that their brains were wired in a way incompatible with the process, or even able to defend against it.

Also if the Reapers were targeting humanity first, with plans to perform similar evaluations and create reapers based on the other species, it would have given them a reason to target earth first. Instead of invading the whole galaxy (derp), the Reapers would focus on human territory, then move on to the next, then the next.

This would also have meant a reason for the other species to rally at earth.


Its really amazing how a few seemingly minor changes can snowball a once promising franchise into a massive steaming pile of crap, isn't it Casey? 
Title: Re: Mass Effect 3
Post by: Sixftunder on January 13, 2013, 11:17:20 PM
And Mass Effect.

You BIG. STUPID. JELLYFISH. The first trilogy was incredible, and there's another game on the way. It's potential couldn't be more fulfilled. Well you know, other than... that... slight... issue... that we don't speak of. The FUD cycle has been broken for a thousand posts, and I shall not continue it.

Screw another game from EAware, I wish they would pass the franchise off to another developer, but we know EA will never let the rights to that intellectual property go.

Imagine a re-make of the the trilogy from a developer like CD Projekt Red and their current publisher; "the game will be done when it's ready."
Title: Re: Mass Effect 3
Post by: Capac Amaru on January 13, 2013, 11:27:54 PM
And Mass Effect.

You BIG. STUPID. JELLYFISH. The first trilogy was incredible, and there's another game on the way. It's potential couldn't be more fulfilled. Well you know, other than... that... slight... issue... that we don't speak of. The FUD cycle has been broken for a thousand posts, and I shall not continue it.

Screw another game from EAware, I wish they would pass the franchise off to another developer, but we know EA will never let the rights to that intellectual property go.

Imagine a re-make of the the trilogy from a developer like CD Projekt Red and their current publisher; "the game will be done when it's ready."

Imagine a re-make? I'm writing one lol.
Title: Re: Mass Effect 3
Post by: Sixftunder on January 14, 2013, 04:00:46 AM
As for the Reapers, whether you go by the officially mandated vision of them (cybernetic amalgams of organics and technology), or the version I'd hoped to see (post-Singularity evolution of organic races), it's clear that they're not AIs in the sense that EDI or the geth are.

Wow. Post-singularity evolution of organic races, where have I heard that before.... oh, my post 15 posts back. *Smugface*

Sovereign: "We are the pinnacle of evolution"

whoops, guess that was thrown out the window.

"Nah, just kidding. We are machines filled with the the slushies formed by putting organics into a giant blender" 
Title: Re: Mass Effect 3
Post by: Capac Amaru on January 14, 2013, 05:04:20 AM
As for the Reapers, whether you go by the officially mandated vision of them (cybernetic amalgams of organics and technology), or the version I'd hoped to see (post-Singularity evolution of organic races), it's clear that they're not AIs in the sense that EDI or the geth are.

Wow. Post-singularity evolution of organic races, where have I heard that before.... oh, my post 15 posts back. *Smugface*

Sovereign: "We are the pinnacle of evolution"

whoops, guess that was thrown out the window.

"Nah, just kidding. We are machines filled with the the slushies formed by putting organics into a giant blender"

Organic essence! Bioware good science!
Title: Re: Mass Effect 3
Post by: That Gunslinger on January 14, 2013, 08:17:34 AM
Screw another game from EAware, I wish they would pass the franchise off to another developer, but we know EA will never let the rights to that intellectual property go.

EA is a pushy, aggressive publisher. But Bioware have given us one of the greatest journeys ever seen in the medium. I want to spend more time in that universe, and Bioware have clearly proven they know what they're doing. The only significant things I didn't like about the trilogy was the ending to ME3 (which they actually released and extended cut for, free of charge, which I guarantee no other developer would do), and the good/evil morality system, which I seriously hope they improve. I don't want a bar tracking how 'good' I am, the game should be more organic, as should the decisions.

The whole thing was a seemingly impossible task, yet it turned out to be pretty amazing.

That said, they are clearly a very inconsistent studio. See, Dragon Age 2. So I admit I'm not entirely confident ME4 will be good. We'll see. I just see no point in passing judgement yet, when there's nothing to judge. Maybe the next Dragon Age will be a good way to judge the ability of the studio, since a few major figures left.
Title: Re: Mass Effect 3
Post by: Capac Amaru on January 14, 2013, 08:51:58 AM
I think its pretty clear that some of us have reached the tipping point and made the judgement.

I was thinking about a morality system where it keeps an invisible measure of your fame / infamy as well as values for each character you interact with which is basically whether they agree / disagree with your reputation and what you say. What you say would be compared to your reputation and if it doesn't match the npcs would 'know' that you are lying or putting on an act (an npc knowing you are lying isn't necessarily bad though. you might pretend to be a nice guy to someone who knows you are actually a mass murderer, but he wants to hire you and helps maintain the 'good' guy charade). Then you could have situations like a thief type character playing the loveable rogue, and stealing everything that isn't nailed down un-detected with no one the wiser, or a misunderstood paladin who tries his hardest to help people but isn't trusted because of that one time a village burned down...

I really wish I'd quit my job and stuck with videogame programming...


But yeah. The only things with an EA logo on them that I will pay money for now are David Gaider's Dragon Age novels.

I agree that Mass Effect 3 had some amazing content. The problem for me was they cut out everything that got me on board the trilogy 5 + years ago.

I came for a plot focused golden age hard-ish sci-fi rpg.

It turned into a side character focused modern soft space opera third person action shooter.

That's ok for people who want that (I guess) but it isn't what I signed up for. It wasn't what I put down money for when I pre-ordered Mass Effect five years ago.
Title: Re: Mass Effect 3
Post by: That Gunslinger on January 14, 2013, 04:38:50 PM
Yeah that's pretty much what I want from the morality system side. The player doesn't need to see the bars, and tallies. They only need to see the consequences of their choices. On the topic of actual choices, I don't think they should be presented the player in an A, B, or C manner. Some possible choices will be obvious given each circumstance, but developers should trust players to act by themselves, and accommodate those alternate choices without the game narrative spiralling out of control. That's certainly not possible with all games, but developers should at least take time to consider if it is possible in each context.

Yeah, I just butchered that from an Extra Credits episode. Like all of my thoughts.

In some ways I'm glad that I'm able to follow this medium in it's infancy, but I also feel constantly frustrated that it isn't reaching it's potential, and that I can't even imagine what it's potential really is, since it's so grounded in rapidly advancing technology. I know I just need to be patient. 
vidya gamer 4 lyfe.
Title: Re: Mass Effect 3
Post by: Postmortem on January 14, 2013, 05:16:24 PM
In some ways I'm glad that I'm able to follow this medium in it's infancy

Don't let Pacman see this.
Title: Re: Mass Effect 3
Post by: DangerousDave on January 14, 2013, 06:57:13 PM
My idea for an invisible morality system would have all NPCs' reactions to you based on your relation and position on the intersection of two axes--one being perceived morality (good, evil), and the other being reaction (fear, love). So either that villager gives you a discount because they like you, or they're afraid you'll set their shop on fire if they don't.

I'd also love for morality systems to become less gameable. Make real risk/reward elements and make it hard to suddenly go from bad to good at the drop of a hat (looking at you Fable.)

My ideal RPG wouldn't have visible skill points either, but that's another issue.
Title: Re: Mass Effect 3
Post by: Capac Amaru on January 14, 2013, 11:44:39 PM
That's pretty similar to what I was thinking Dave.

Also: degrees of success. The more they 'approve/disapprove' of you, the greater the impact. If you have a little bit of a bad reputation, then the crime boss might only tolerate you, but if you have enough reputation even HE will fear you.

Or in your example, a little good reputation means the shopkeeper welcomes you warmly, a lot means discounts, a little bad reputation means he's worried you might shoplift, a medium reputation means he's worried you might hurt him and take what you want, and a lot of bad rep has him worried you'll exterminate the village.
Title: Re: Mass Effect 3
Post by: DangerousDave on January 15, 2013, 12:46:37 AM
Yeah! Another thing I'd love would be more reasonable (real life) distances between towns and villages, so you could essentially "beat" news of your murder spree to the next village, or alternatively after a long crime spree become well known and more scrutinized. It'd be nice if they had a mechanic for familiarity too, but that might make things more complicated--a way that your perceived orientation becomes more fixed over time.

And a chief component would be the removal of evil / good points for mob kills. If no one saw you slaughter those zombies, then it doesn't count. Likewise, if you get away with murder...
Title: Re: Mass Effect 3
Post by: Capac Amaru on January 15, 2013, 12:55:51 AM
Oh, he was like that when I got here!
Title: Re: Mass Effect 3
Post by: Capac Amaru on February 07, 2013, 06:02:58 AM
Watching Paragon Lost (Pirate Bay ftw)

Ugh.
Title: Re: Mass Effect 3
Post by: Sixftunder on February 07, 2013, 12:27:19 PM
Watching Paragon Lost (Pirate Bay ftw)

Ugh.

I saw/heard enough about it before and just after release to know I would never willingly watch it. Besides the fact that it is another anime based off a western game, who the hell cares about James Vega? The krogan look worse than the brute did in halo legends.

Smudboy's most recent video is about paragon lost, though I'm sure you already knew that and that is why you are watching it. ;)

will you be sharing your tasteful, understated nerdrage with us if your brain isn't fried afterwards? :D
Title: Re: Mass Effect 3
Post by: Postmortem on February 07, 2013, 04:40:37 PM
Yeah. Vega and bastardized Krogan killed it for me. I tell you, Mass Effect has one of the best scifi universes out there... probably ever. But they're terrible with EU content.
Title: Re: Mass Effect 3
Post by: Capac Amaru on February 07, 2013, 09:12:58 PM
It's funny, the Krogan was my favourite character until he started crying.

It played so fast and loose with the universe that it impressed me with how it managed to trample all over Mass Effect lore even more than 2 and 3 did.

Giant collectors? Wut?

The one part of current Mass Effect feel that they really captured well was the forced arbitrary binary choice with two outcomes that were both based on impossibilities.

Somewhat dampened by 2001 inspired double bluff 'did he or didn't he' padding at the end. It was so obvious that Bioware told them to focus on some big choice at the end.
Title: Re: Mass Effect 3
Post by: That Gunslinger on February 07, 2013, 10:16:44 PM
It's funny, the Krogan was my favourite character until he started crying.

A crying... Krogan... OK, now I've GOT to watch this.
Title: Re: Mass Effect 3
Post by: Postmortem on February 07, 2013, 10:49:24 PM
Let me know when it's on Netflix.
Title: Re: Mass Effect 3
Post by: Capac Amaru on February 15, 2013, 06:00:17 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5L5eCdtk6E0 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5L5eCdtk6E0)

Full Paragon Lost on Youtube, for anyone who doesn't want the money to trickle back to EA.

Title: Re: Mass Effect 3
Post by: Postmortem on February 15, 2013, 06:32:35 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5L5eCdtk6E0 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5L5eCdtk6E0)

Full Paragon Lost on Youtube, for anyone who doesn't want the money to trickle back to EA.

NOPE
Title: Re: Mass Effect 3
Post by: Sixftunder on February 15, 2013, 10:04:06 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5L5eCdtk6E0 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5L5eCdtk6E0)

Full Paragon Lost on Youtube, for anyone who doesn't want the money to trickle back to EA.

Thanks Capac. I hope this will be better enjoyed under the influence of alcohol.

Edit: "this video is not available in your country." *sigh* maybe its a sign...
Title: Re: Mass Effect 3
Post by: Capac Amaru on February 16, 2013, 03:58:13 PM
Now you know how I feel when I try to watch things on the Adult Swim and South Park websites...
Title: Re: Mass Effect 3
Post by: Postmortem on March 06, 2013, 01:52:19 AM
Another DLC? I never heard about this one...
Title: Re: Mass Effect 3
Post by: Capac Amaru on March 06, 2013, 05:25:41 AM
Another DLC? I never heard about this one...

Its like the other ones, but even less interesting from what little I've heard.

Maybe the Citadel DLC patches the massive Citadel plothole that rendered the events of Mass Effect 1 irrelevant? LOL
Title: Re: Mass Effect 3
Post by: Sixftunder on March 06, 2013, 03:26:38 PM
It basically breaks down like this:

Anderson, who is on Earth watching thousands of Humans die everyday, while the rest of the galaxy is being raped, ORDERS Sheppard and crew on shore leave while the galaxy is at war. Seriously, let that sink in for a second.

Sounds like a good idea, right? Why doesn't Admirial Hood order Chief on Shore leave when he returns to Earth in the beginning of Halo 2 or 3? There is nothing important going on anyway, right?

Then it goes into a one part Ocean's Eleven rip-off, another part cliche evil clone plot, and yes those words are used.

And then there is the "fan-service" everyone is talking about. After beating the main plot, you get to have some more time individually with all of your crew and an additional scene with your LI. So now Bioware gets to wave the "we were listening!" flag because of all the fanboys that wanted a LI DLC, and the fanboys will rejoice and say" YES Bioware! Thank you for an additional two minute scene that is just like the original LI sex scene of the vanilla game. I will definitely pay you for for these character goodbyes that should have been in the original game"

Honestly, I'm glad this is the end. At the end of the day, if you're not a Bioware fanboy that praises them for everything thing they do and blindly throw your money at them, then they don't listen to you. A company built around a sound relationship with it's consumers no longer cares to take in constructive criticism. While there are those that offer their criticism in a derogatory and threatening way, not everyone on the BSN or other forums has done so and it's those people that should have their voice be heard and not just lumped into the "haters" group because we agree with them but are able to present our thoughts in a coherent and meaningful manner.

There are people who realize that the only way we can force Bioware and EA to listen is through holding our wallets. Hopefully Dead Space 3 and it's lackluster sales are an indicator that people are starting to realize the power they have and I can only hope that when ME4 comes out that people do the same, no matter how good the game might look or even actually be. We were lied to pre-ME3 release, something even the Better Business Bureau stated, so why wouldn't we think it would happen again?

And I'm done.

Title: Re: Mass Effect 3
Post by: That Gunslinger on March 06, 2013, 03:59:58 PM
Well said Six.

I didn't get any of the DLC, and I'm not getting this one. EA are just EA, and Bioware are acting like spoilt children. I'm not getting ME4, even if it's amazing, because I don't want to contribute to EA's domination over the industry. People joke about EA being 'the worst company ever', but they really are, at least in the video-game industry. They're single-handedly killing the entire industry by corrupting talented studios, and making them their slaves.

I haven't been a Bioware fan for a long time, but don't misunderstand me, I LOVE the Mass Effect universe. The places, the characters, and the adventures I went on don't cease to be good because Bioware messed it up in the end. I thank Bioware for making one of my favourite games of all time, but they aren't the same company any more.

I not too bothered that the series messed up, because for that small price I got countless good memories. Seeing the Citadel for the first time, becoming a Spectre, opening the galaxy map for the first time and realising there was an entire galaxy to explore. Kicking ass with my battle-bros Garrus and Wrex, Curing the Genophage, making peace between the Geth and the Quarians and doing MLG stunts in my Mako.

So yeah, it's been a fun ride, but I'm going to get off now. Because I don't like where it's headed. 
Title: Re: Mass Effect 3
Post by: Capac Amaru on March 06, 2013, 05:03:34 PM
All but 2 in the first game. Sums it up really.

Mass Effect is just another sci-fi RPG trilogy with 1 installment, followed by varying degrees of empty promises.

Advent Rising, Too Human, Knights of the Old Republic....

I want to immerse myself in a living breathing scifi world damn it.
Title: Re: Mass Effect 3
Post by: That Gunslinger on March 06, 2013, 07:05:58 PM
All but 2 in the first game. Sums it up really.

I was getting nostalgic. You want me to make the full list? That will take some time. The third game had the best moments by far, it's just everything around them was a mess.
Title: Re: Mass Effect 3
Post by: Capac Amaru on March 06, 2013, 07:10:51 PM
I think its safe to say that the first game was the most consistent though?

Also I think the best moments from 3 were only any good because they were pay-offs for set ups from the first game (and to a lesser extent the second).
Title: Re: Mass Effect 3
Post by: That Gunslinger on March 06, 2013, 07:51:55 PM
I think its safe to say that the first game was the most consistent though?

Also I think the best moments from 3 were only any good because they were pay-offs for set ups from the first game (and to a lesser extent the second).

Oh yeah definitely. It sure wasn't perfect, but the first game was pure art. Then EA came...

And yeah being the third instalment in a trilogy means there's going to be more pay-offs than the other games, but I still think they did a good job with them... well... most of them... let's not go there. ::)